Elizabeth Prater

[Debra A]

Thanks Rob, you've been colouring in again I see. (first prize again I think!)

I think the McCarthy's did have lodgers at #27, Henry Buckley, the guy who stabbed a man in the leg did live there didn't he? I don't know if it was because he worked for McCarthy though.

Sam, I'm glad you were thinking about what I said anyway, I was contemplating a public grump nearly then!

regarding the numbering of the court, was #13 numbered because it was the 13th house in Miller's Court, or was the numbering carrying on the sequence in #26?

[Sam Flynn]

regarding the numbering of the court, was #13 numbered because it was the 13th house in Miller's Court, or was the numbering carrying on the sequence in #26?

According to the Telegraph, Debs, there were 7 rooms on the upper floors of #26. Given that we know room numbers 19 and 20 existed - somewhere! - on those upper floors, it's almost certain that #13 was a continuation of the numbering in Miller's Court, going clockwise from number 1 (Venturney's room, first on the left through archway).

[Rob Clack]

Hi Debs, Gareth,

Yeah, that's right we were talking about this Buckley person before. I think he had been with McCarthy for about 10 years.
Strangely the 1891 census lists 16 people at 27 and 5 of those could be lodgers, and only 2 residents at #26.
The Millers Court census returns only lists #2 to #13.

Rob

[Stephen Thomas]

If she did live at #20 and that one sketch is correct then she really didn't live near Kelly at all.

Hi Stan

Not really. In the Old Bailey transcript of the January 1899 trial of Kate Marshall for killing her sister, the guy living in #20 says that Marshall's door at #19 was only 9 foot from his.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18990109-124-offence-1&div=t18990109-124#highlight

[Suzi]

Hi Stephen
Great post there from the sworn statement of Kate Marshall...I particularly liked the image of 'living with the deceased woman ,Mr Roberts and one child as whipmakers'..!.By the way following some research......well getting the Chambers out!!!....a half -quartern of rum is an eighth of a pint....so that a pint of ale for 6d sounds a tad pricey to me!...even at 1899 prices!!

Incidently.... There is the recurring image of the 'child' somewhere in Millers Ct.....in 1888...this has always fascinated me...I'm sure 'he/she/it' wasn't living with Mary- but a child could just have a) been dropped in or b) been dropped off (abandoned) or just wandered in maybe......

..*.Andrew Lloyd- Webber may be interested if we could get hold of him though!!!

Suzixx

(It's GOT to be Jodie re above comment!)*

[sdreid]

If you've ever lived in an apartment as I have, you know that you can't hear the people below you nearly as well as you can hear those above.

[Suzi]

Exactly! I had a Russian friend who said of his apartment...'The Walls were so thin.....you could hear the man next door changing his mind!'...More than likely true and the floors of the 'balcony' were like Maltesers from Concrete cancer!!!

Hubby says when he was in Northern Ireland in the 80's he could hear the person in the portacabin next door reading the paper....well turning the pages!!!.......scary thought!

Kate Marshall's fascinating though.........thanks for that

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Stan,

If you've ever lived in an apartment as I have, you know that you can't hear the people below you nearly as well as you can hear those above.

But if all that separated you were a thin partition, a stairwell and 9 feet of landing, a scream would have been perfectly audible, albeit ever so slightly muted.

I'm currently sitting upstairs behind a relatively thick modern door, and the living room is over 10 feet away down the stairs, behind two more doors. If someone (God forbid) were to scream down there right now, I'd not only hear it, but I'd be down those stairs like a shot.

[Chava]

Where was the staircase leading to the upstairs rooms? That might make some difference to the location of the 'front' and 'back' rooms. As for the inconsistent numbering, I wonder if Millers Court would have even had a '#13' after the murder. I can see that room being renumbered in order to make it rentable again.

[Sam Flynn]

Where was the staircase leading to the upstairs rooms? That might make some difference to the location of the 'front' and 'back' rooms.

Hi Chava,

The terms "front" and "back" would have had very little to do with where the staircase was positioned or, indeed, have been influenced by any putative renumbering of the rooms. Then, as now, "front" must simply have meant "that which faced the main road" - in this case, Dorset Street - and "back" meant "that which faced away from the main road".

[perrymason]

Hi all,

I think its safe to asume that the staircase was directly ahead through the door in the archway. There would have been a narrow hallway on the left, where one doorway led to the parlour...Marys room,...and I believe at one time there may have been a kitchen on that floor along that hallway somewhere. The pump in the courtyard had to be for wash and drinking, or cooking, and Im sure not every room had its own hearth like Marys in her converted quarters. I think there must have been a communal kitchen in that house at some point.

Best regards.

[Suzi]

I think this is how the layout went -Thanks to Sam here but surely this ties in with what Mrs P said re seeing the cracks of light through the boards etc on her way upstairs etc etc..Hmmmmmmmmmmm p/c not working at the mo....give me a minute.. will post when it is.....but I imagine that Mrs P came into the building behind said partition and saw the light between those stair lining/partition boards on her way upstairs...I doubt she saw anything through her floorboards!!..... If so.... What was she doing there anyway!!!

[Suzi]

Sorry am re scribbling this...I cant quite get my head around Mrs P's actual residence although ... I'm convinced she went up from behind that partition ...as usual -to her room ..that I suspect was above Mary's..... no doubt noting...in a rather nosey way that there was a light on or that there was some light or movement or whatever.. ....more than likely with a kitten under her arm! I can't quite get it out of my head that Mrs P may have had the luxury of a room that looked out onto Dorset St !!!! and into Millers Ct!

[Chava]

Thanks Sam. But I think I didn't make myself clear. I know that the front always looks onto the street. The window above and slightly to the onlooker's left of Kelly's crib faces onto the court. So it's a 'back' room in absolute terms but a 'front' room in terms of Millers Court as it looks onto the court.

Suzi, that looks right to me as a floor layout for upstairs Millers Court, except that Lizzie says she could see lights from Kelly's room under her floorboards, doesn't she? Which she wouldn't be able to in the position you've given her. I am prepared to believe that Lizzie did in fact occupy a room right above Mary's. Because clearly someone did. And clearly that someone would be very much interviewed by the police as having possibly heard or seen something. Lizzie appears at the inquest but really doesn't say much except she didn't see or hear Kelly on the night in question. So I believe the only reason she was there was because she was directly above Kelly and had the room with the large window that we see clearly in the pix Stewart so kindly posted...

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

So it's a 'back' room in absolute terms but a 'front' room in terms of Millers Court as it looks onto the court.

The problem is that, if you apply that reasoning, every room that faced into Miller's Court - which was almost all of them - was somehow in the "front"? I really don't think such an interpretation stands up to scrutiny. Quite simply - if someone is reported as "occupying the first floor front", or is reported as saying that they live there, then the meaning is quite clear.