Elizabeth Prater

[Stephen Thomas]

Read the thread.

Answer the question, Mister. What 'multiple' reports?

I'm all ears.

[Sam Flynn]

What 'multiple' reports?

Hi Stephen/All,

There follows a compilation of local and national (British) newspapers containing the various relevant references to Prater and her room, which may help.

The Star, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well. She told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers."

The Daily Telegraph, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window.

Daily News, 10th November: Mrs. Prater, who occupies a room in 26 Dorset street, above that of the deceased stated that she had a chat with Kelly on Thursday morning.

The Echo, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, deposed , "I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me.

The Star, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased.

The Morning Advertiser, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater, said - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court. (No info as to position of room.)

The Daily Telegraph, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below.

St James Gazette, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her.

The Times, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased.

Daily News, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater said-My husband is a boot machinist, but he has deserted me this five years. I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me.

[sdreid]

Does anyone know Prater's age in 1888? For some reason, I picture her as about 50 but I could be way off.

[perrymason]

It would seem that Elizabeth herself, or the reports of her location arent specific enough, or consistent enough to exclude or include a courtyard facing window.

I think her hearing a voice that she thought originated from the courtyard will have to be the tipping point for me, because I cannot believe that she could possibly, even tentatively, identify the location of a voice she heard coming from a Dorset Street window as being from a source down a 23 foot stone archway beneath and behind her room.

So Ill step off this train, and wish you all well to your own destinations.

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

I think her hearing a voice that she thought originated from the courtyard will have to be the tipping point for me, because I cannot believe that she could possibly, even tentatively, identify the location of a voice she heard coming from a Dorset Street window as being from a source down a 23 foot stone archway beneath and behind her room.

(a) She may have picked up on what Lewis said and flowered up her own narrative; and (b) maybe the suggestion of an "L-shaped Room" needs revisiting.

In respect of the "L-shaped Room", recall that Prater did give her address (in her police statement) as 27 Dorset Street, and that the bridge over the archway (connecting the two premises and furnished with windows) belonged to 27 Dorset Street. An "L-shaped Room" would have the virtue of having windows that overlooked both Crossingham's lodging-house and the courtyard of Miller's Court. It would also have been simultaneously "almost above" Kelly's room and the "shed".

[perrymason]

"It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?"

Are you suggesting that the idea above I posted a few pages back has merit Sam? Not that I think Im the first to ever suggest it....

It would be nice to be on the same side occassionally my friend.

All the best Gareth.

[Debra A]

(a)
and that the bridge over the archway (connecting the two premises and furnished with windows) belonged to 27 Dorset Street. An "L-shaped Room" would have the virtue of having windows that overlooked both Crossingham's lodging-house and the courtyard of Miller's Court. It would also have been simultaneously "almost above" Kelly's room and the "shed".

Hi Sam,
Personally, I think calling it a bridge connecting the two premises is misleading. The passageway between #26 and #27 Dorset Street existed so as to allow people access to the court. Once past ground floor height there is no need to continue the height of the passage, so during building #27 gains an extra couple of feet onto it's side wall surely? making the rooms in #27 slightly wider than the rooms in #26.
The internal walls of the main buildings aren't shown on the Goads plan, the only reason I think the wall dividing room 13 from the rest of the house is shown was to illustrate that that part of the building was 2 storeys high and the rest of the buiding was higher. I think we all agree that #26 was divided into several rooms along it's length, so I would guess the same applies to #27 as well. Therefore even though someone in the room above the passage at #27 would have a view into the court, it would have to be one hell of a long room to stretch through to the front too.

I don't know if this makes any sense....but I know what I mean, I'm just having trouble explaining it!

[Stephen Thomas]

There follows a compilation of local and national (British) newspapers containing the various relevant references to Prater and her room, which may help.

Many thanks, Sam. That was very helpful indeed. It seems to me that Prater is stressing that she lived in very close proximity to Kelly as opposed to in the attic or ten doors down the road or whatever.

Here's a statement from the woman who murdered her sister in Room 19 in 1898 which goes some way to explaining the layout and why Prater felt the need to barricade her door.



And here's a (very!!!) rough and ready sketch of the most likely layout of that floor of the house

[Sam Flynn]

"It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?"

Are you suggesting that the idea above I posted a few pages back has merit Sam? Not that I think Im the first to ever suggest it....

It's a reasonable proposition, Mike. That said, and to paraphrase Laplace, "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese"

[Rob Clack]

To confirm what Debs has said, here's the Goads Plan from 1890. It clearly shows the window above the Millers Court arch belonged to #27 and not #26



and this is from The Bristol Mercury 13 November 1888.



Rob

[Sam Flynn]

To confirm what Debs has said, here's the Goads Plan from 1890. It clearly shows the window above the Millers Court arch belonged to #27 and not #26

Hi Rob,

That's true - however, weren't the rooms of the Keylers', Julia Venturney etc a continuation of the back of #27? Note that this doesn't stop them being part of "Miller's Court" - only that they were nearer to the #27 side than that of #26.

Debs - I thought your point about the length of the room (if extended to the end of the archway) was a good one, even though I'm still trying to work out precisely why

[Rob Clack]

Hi Gareth,

The Keylers were #2 Millers Court and Julia Venturney #1 which if I remember correctly was the same dwelling, the first on the left though the Court. It does abutt onto 27 Dorset Street but couldn't be accessed from 27 and had it's own door.
Didn't all the McCarthy clan live at 27?

Rob

[sdreid]

If she did live at #20 and that one sketch is correct then she really didn't live near Kelly at all.

Where was Diddles' litter box?

[Sam Flynn]

Didn't all the McCarthy clan live at 27?

That's an interesting question - I honestly don't think we know. It was a large(ish) house and I can imagine that, if #27 had any spare rooms, then McCarthy may have sought to extract profit from them in the form of sublets. This was, after all, a model we've seen in operation elsewhere in the district at that time - 29 Hanbury Street being the most obvious.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The rooms in the cottages up the left side of Millers Court were numbered 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, and down the right side 7/8, 9/10, 11/12. MJK lived in 13.

According to an 1878 Metropolitan Board of Works report into schoolroom overcrowding, the downstairs room of cottage No. 6 [11/12] was 12 x 12 x 8[h].

"The Inspector, Mr. Wrack, on visiting the houses in Miller's-court, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, on the 11th September, found that the ground-floor room of No. 6, was used as a school-room during the day and as a sleeping-room at night."

Regards,

Simon