Elizabeth Prater

[Stewart P Evans]

Lodging House

Sorry about all the questions, but....Im sure something like this has probably been vetted here a few times or more, but If the room that Elizabeth Prater hears "oh-murder" from only faces Dorset Street...and we do know someone in the immediate area uttered it, because it is also heard down the courtyard at the Keyler's by Sarah, as "if at the door"...then isn't the logical location for the origin to have been at the entrance to the courtyard, or in front of it?
Best regards.

I think that the following wording from Prater's statement clearly indicates the location of the lodging house and the cry -

"I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently heard such cries from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Millers Court."

This should, conclusively, dispose of any idea that the lodging house referred to by Prater was Crossingham's opposite the front of 26 Dorset Street.

Are we ready to put this one to bed yet?

Thanks for the numbers Simon, that means that Marys head is well inside the archway, so to speak, when she is found...Id imagined that her head would be approximately at that space between door and archway...which as I said in the photo looks like a very short distance.

Thanks again Simon.

[George Hutchinson]

Stan - being a stereoview collector of stereocards, vistascreens and viewmasters (I love 3D photography!) I can see where you're coming from. However, some of the mortuary shots have a similar curved cropping. I do know that putting this kind of chamfer on old photos - certainly as far as CDVs are concerned - usually dates them to post-1870.

Whoever it was who did those incredible and mind-boggling 3D images of the mortuary shots a few years back, I don't know HOW you turned a 2D shot into a 3D one, but BOY would we like to see more!

PHILIP

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, of course I read the thread, and I don't believe it to be off topic to point out the time keeping problems of the LVP when we are discussing conflicting witness testimony in a murder case.
I should say, rather, that it was vital to do so.
If they can't tell the time they could have been eating your cream cheese on the moon.

[Stewart P Evans]

Original Negative

Speaking of depth, that is the photo that looks suspiciously like half of a stereoscope pair to me.
Wouldn't next door be #28 or did they number differently back then?

I don't think so, it's an original print taken from the glass plate negative. The numbering in Dorset Street ran numerically in order, 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. from the west end of the south side to the east end (Commercial Street) then back along the north side, east to west. Therefore 26 Dorset Street was flanked on one side (the east) by no. 25 and the other by no. 27 (McCarthy's shop and dwelling).

Sorry about all the questions, but....Im sure something like this has probably been vetted here a few times or more, but If the room that Elizabeth Prater hears "oh-murder" from only faces Dorset Street...and we do know someone in the immediate area uttered it, because it is also heard down the courtyard at the Keyler's by Sarah, as "if at the door"...then isn't the logical location for the origin to have been at the entrance to the courtyard, or in front of it?

Best regards.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Various measurements have been given for Room 13, but the most consistently mentioned is 12 ft [door to fireplace] x 10 ft [broken window to partition wall].

If true, Room 13 extended about 6.0 - 6.5 feet into the arched entrance.

Here's a few measurements which might help—

From the Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report for 1878, concerning the Quarter ending 28th September.

"[Millers] court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 7 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin, both of which are within a few feet of the school-room in question."

Regards,

Simon

[sdreid]

Speaking of depth, that is the photo that looks suspiciously like half of a stereoscope pair to me.

Wouldn't next door be #28 or did they number differently back then?

Thanks Deb...thats one possible answer down.

In that photograph Marys door is almost in the archway, and in the sketch, more like what I was thinking with those rough numbers Stewart. Were photographs able to capture depth's accurately? Surely her rooms interior dimensions are just scaled versions of her exterior dimensions. So shouldn't that wall with her door on it be roughly 10-12 feet long...or was her partition wall further into the main structure?.

Im basing my guesses on the assumption that the doorway now blocked by what appears to be an old door for the Dorset Street frontage...there is what appears to be faded 2 and 6 on that wall section...entered a hallway that accessed the stairs Mrs Prater uses, or perhaps a kitchen if turning left down the hall?

Im really just asking not suggesting.

My Best Regards.

[Stewart P Evans]

Measurements

Im not certain that this need be an "either- or" situation with respect to the direction of Elizabeth's windows. There was a contemporary sketch of the court that did show a window in the archway facing down into the court. Based on the rough dimensions of Marys room, that archway was perhaps 12-15 feet from the corner of the courtyard wall of #13, pointing into the court?
Now...how deep would that house be in total...including Marys room as it was a parlour or sitting room at one time. The archway itself was I believe slightly over 20 feet, and began at the street. So to the end or Marys courtyard wall from the entrance is likely some 30-35 feet? That archway might be the rough middle of the dwelling. It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?
Best regards all.

I don't think that you have got your measurements quite right there, judging by the photograph, the sketch is from The Illustrated Police News -

[Debra A]

Just a quick one regarding the window above the archway mentioned by both Michael and Stan. The part of the building above the archway belonged to #27 Dorset Street, and not #26. This is confirmed by the Goads plan and was shown to me by Jake.

[Stewart P Evans]

Times

Interesting thread, Stewart.
What bothers me though are the references to specific or non-specific times.
A few years ago I invited a specialist horologist in these matters to comment on this specific theme on the boards, which he did, maintaining that it would have been highly unlikely that any of the witnesses would have possessed a time piece in 1888, or even the large lodging houses for that matter. As can be seen from many other witness statements in the case, time was always fixed from a church clock, or in some cases a brewery clock... so how could a witness, suddenly woken by a cry in the night, have fixed the time from their bed?
The horologist also maintained that, given the distance from Big Ben, all parish church clocks would have been from ten to twenty minutes out of cinque with GMT.
It is a crucial issue that many gloss over or completely ignore.

I have never thought that we can accord much reliance to times given by the average witness in this case. It is one of the reasons that I am a little sceptical of those who work out things to the exact second. It's another one of the things that we have to bear in mind I suppose - it makes things even more difficult. The times I have been quoting on this thread, of course, are those that conflict with the times given by the same witness in a different report. I am basing nothing on the accuracy or otherwise of the times given. Although, personally, I should say that the cry of 'murder' heard did indicate the time of the crime, whatever that time may have been - but probably around 4.00 a.m. This does not signal that I want a huge debate about time of death. Everyone to their own, certainly the medics couldn't agree.

Im not certain that this need be an "either- or" situation with respect to the direction of Elizabeth's windows. There was a contemporary sketch of the court that did show a window in the archway facing down into the court. Based on the rough dimensions of Marys room, that archway was perhaps 12-15 feet from the corner of the courtyard wall of #13, pointing into the court?

Now...how deep would that house be in total...including Marys room as it was a parlour or sitting room at one time. The archway itself was I believe slightly over 20 feet, and began at the street. So to the end or Marys courtyard wall from the entrance is likely some 30-35 feet? That archway might be the rough middle of the dwelling. It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?

Best regards all.

[Tom_Wescott]

AP,

Have you even read the thread? It's not about timing, it's about the location of Liz Prater's room. And just for the record, I see no substantial reason to doubt the accepted location as being over Mary's room, unless Sam has something else up his sleeve he'd like to share?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Interesting thread, Stewart.
What bothers me though are the references to specific or non-specific times.
A few years ago I invited a specialist horologist in these matters to comment on this specific theme on the boards, which he did, maintaining that it would have been highly unlikely that any of the witnesses would have possessed a time piece in 1888, or even the large lodging houses for that matter. As can be seen from many other witness statements in the case, time was always fixed from a church clock, or in some cases a brewery clock... so how could a witness, suddenly woken by a cry in the night, have fixed the time from their bed?
The horologist also maintained that, given the distance from Big Ben, all parish church clocks would have been from ten to twenty minutes out of cinque with GMT.
It is a crucial issue that many gloss over or completely ignore.