Elizabeth Prater

[Sam Flynn]

Kelly's murder in 'Dorset Court' reported in:

Croydon Advertiser.
Echo.
East and Westham Gazette.
Evening News.

It was a Press Association report, repeated verbatim in each of those papers, AP.

[Tom_Wescott]

You'd think he would know that, what with his name being AP* and all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott




* Associated Press

[Stewart P Evans]

A Shed

Yes, all the incidental detail is wrong, but I was nevertheless intrigued by the use of the terms outhouse and shed. I've always thought that the gated room at the front of 26 Dorset Street—being an integral part of the building—would have been referred to as a storeroom.
Regards,
Simon

The use of the term 'shed' has always been a bit confusing, as Simon indicates. However, reference to a standard 1887 dictionary shows that the word may have been used a bit differently in those days. Here is the 1887 dictionary defiinition -

[perrymason]

My understanding is that "sheds" like this one, or essentially storage rooms, were on street frontage to allow for horse and cart to offload goods easily, rather than having to lug them around back. With 26 Dorset though, it appears that only the shed had a Dorset Street facing door.

Was that normal?

Best regards all.

[Stephen Thomas]

My understanding is that "sheds" like this one, or essentially storage rooms, were on street frontage to allow for horse and cart to offload goods easily, rather than having to lug them around back. With 26 Dorset though, it appears that only the shed had a Dorset Street facing door.

Hi Michael

Well there was a front door which can be seen here to the left of the gates of the shed which may have been used to enter the shed when the gates were locked. One report says that all the residents of #26 had to enter the house via the door in the passageway next to Kelly's so I suppose that would explain the necessity of building the wooden partition and the 'new' staircase to the upper floors, for which there would have been no need otherwise.

[Stephen Thomas]

Here's a decent reproduction of the shed picture above, followed by the 1929 pre-demolition photo showing McCarthy's shop on the left and #26 on the right. The shed doors have been replaced by brickwork but the two front doors are the same and the drainpipe is still there.

[paul emmett]

I was looking at THE STAR from Nov 10, and found a reporter quoting Prater. "She lived in 13, my room is 20 which is almost over hers." If this has been presented, sorry. If it hasn't, it certianly doesn't help anything.

[Stephen Thomas]

I was looking at THE STAR from Nov 10, and found a reporter quoting Prater. "She lived in 13, my room is 20 which is almost over hers."

Hi Paul

The important word here is 'almost' which is totally unambiguous as opposed to the word 'just' . 'Just over' could imply 'directly over' but 'almost over' can only mean 'not directly over' An excellent round up by Sam Flynn of statements by and regarding Prater can be found in Post#77 of this thread.

[paul emmett]

Thanks, Stephen. Excellent it is. I did feel the same as you about "almost", but clearly there's a lot said here for both sides.

[Shelley]

Cry of Murder

If there was a faint cry of murder, is there any possibility that Mary Kelly could have shouted out ' Oh Murder '? As i would think that taking the view that Murder was cried out, if someone else came accross Kelly's body they would be yelling and screaming ' Murder, Murder ' or even shouting out ' Murder, Murder get the police '.

[Shelley]

Interesting thread, Stewart.
What bothers me though are the references to specific or non-specific times.
A few years ago I invited a specialist horologist in these matters to comment on this specific theme on the boards, which he did, maintaining that it would have been highly unlikely that any of the witnesses would have possessed a time piece in 1888, or even the large lodging houses for that matter. As can be seen from many other witness statements in the case, time was always fixed from a church clock, or in some cases a brewery clock... so how could a witness, suddenly woken by a cry in the night, have fixed the time from their bed?
The horologist also maintained that, given the distance from Big Ben, all parish church clocks would have been from ten to twenty minutes out of cinque with GMT.
It is a crucial issue that many gloss over or completely ignore.

I would like to ask about how would people know what time to get up for work? Would this be perhaps either listening to a clock chiming, i don't know if Big Ben could be heard from Whitechapel, but a church or brewery clock could perhaps be heard that was nearer, i think with some clocks you would just hear the ' O ' clock sounding out, but with others the half past and quarter past, some even with 10 past an so on, also there is an old way of timing by candles. Still it could be a bit hazy as to actual time if you are woken up and go back off to sleep again.

[Nemo]

Hi Shelley

That is an interesting conjecture that maybe someone else discovered the murder scene and cried "Oh, murder!" - and then saw fit not to report it or raise the cry...unlikely I think, but possible

Most timings seem to be made via routine/regular events such as "I knew it was after 4 because the lodging light was out" or "It must have been after 5 because everyone was preparing for market" etc - supposed accurate timings only seem to be had when a clock could be seen or heard in the vicinity - even most policemen had no timepiece.

Sometimes boys were employed to wake workers to ensure they were at work on time. I agree that waking up and trying to guage the time would be very sketchy indeed.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

That is an interesting conjecture that maybe someone else discovered the murder scene and cried "Oh, murder!" - and then saw fit not to report it or raise the cry...unlikely I think, but possible

Most timings seem to be made via routine/regular events such as "I knew it was after 4 because the lodging light was out" or "It must have been after 5 because everyone was preparing for market" etc - supposed accurate timings only seem to be had when a clock could be seen or heard in the vicinity - even most policemen had no timepiece.

Sometimes boys were employed to wake workers to ensure they were at work on time. I agree that waking up and trying to guage the time would be very sketchy indeed.

Hi Nemo,
I didn't say that someone else discovered the body of Kelly and cried ' O Murder ', above i just mentioned the possible ways that the ordinary poor folk of the east end could have told the time. On another post i actually said that i would have thought that with two witnesses who were women and neighbours of Kelly, both stated that they heard a woman's voice cry ' O Murder ' and given the fact that Mary kelly had defense wounds on her finger or thumb and the blood spattering in the room she was killed whilst still alive, it is reasonable to assume that the voice of a woman that cried out ' O murder ' would have been Kelly herself and adds weight to the fact that she was still alive when attacked by the killer, i also said in another post that ' Blotchy ' wouldn't have been the killer of Kelly to my mind, Blotchy would have left the scene long before, my opinion is that Mary Kelly is not a Ripper victim but a nasty domestic killing.

[Nemo]

Hi Shelley

Apologies for misreading your post. Nevertheless it is a reasonable conjecture.

The cry appeared to come from the court...

It has been suggested that Kelly's door was open when the cry was made to account for the acoustics

However, the explanation could possibly be that Kelly was already dead and butchered by 3 am when some third party happened to look in the window and pretty much stifle their own cry of "Oh, murder!" before leaving...

As I said earlier, this is unlikely but certainly a possibility.

When you say she was "alive" before she was killed, do you mean "awake"?

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

Apologies for misreading your post. Nevertheless it is a reasonable conjecture.

The cry appeared to come from the court...

It has been suggested that Kelly's door was open when the cry was made to account for the acoustics

However, the explanation could possibly be that Kelly was already dead and butchered by 3 am when some third party happened to look in the window and pretty much stifle their own cry of "Oh, murder!" before leaving...

As I said earlier, this is unlikely but certainly a possibility.

When you say she was "alive" before she was killed, do you mean "awake"?

Ah yes, her killer could have left her door ajar and perhaps knew a good timing of other peoples coming and goings around the neighbours. I would have thought that if some other woman cried out ' O Murder ' upon seeing Kelly's body, she would have screamed the place down and shouted get the police! as well. No i just meant Kelly was still alive, as on another post i mentioned that to my mind she was lying on the bed resting after having been drinking and either didn't move because of the drink or she knew her surprise visitor, or both. I mean if your still alive as well as a bit of the worse for wear for drink and someone is attacking you you could still be aware and move a bit in defense, but some good blows will weaken you, so hence the faint cry heard of murder.