Charles Cross (Lechmere)

[MrBarnett]

You don’t seem to know very much about the London horseflesh trade.

You will find a lot more info here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...e-slaughterers than in the source you’ve quoted.

More horseflesh (cats meat) was consumed in London than Harrison, Barber could produce. Vast quantities of provincial horseflesh was imported to fill the gap. Harrison, Barber imported some of it and had a wholesale outlet in Coventry Street, Bethnal Green and there were other wholesalers who sold horseflesh that had been produced outside of the London Metropolitan area where HB had the monopoly on production.

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

[barnflatwyngarde]

David Orsam's "Breaking Point" is a good balanced and unbiased overall take on Fisherman's book, I am sure most of us have already read it, if not here is the link:

https://www.orsam.co.uk/breakingpoint.htm

The Baron

Yeah, I've always thought that David Orsam's article on "Cutting Point", was a good and fair analysis of Christer's book.

[Fiver]

You don't seem to know very much about the London horseflesh trade.

I know enough to know how slaughterhouses work. they don't receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. They turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides.

You will find a lot more info here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...e-slaughterers than in the source you've quoted.

Thanks for the link. Did you miss that it starts with the source I quote?

[Fiver]

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

[Columbo]

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

I would think this would put a hole in the Cross killing Chapman theory, but only if he was delivering meat. he would need to be there before 5a I would think.

[rjpalmer]

More horseflesh (cats meat) was consumed in London than Harrison, Barber could produce. Vast quantities of provincial horseflesh was imported to fill the gap. Harrison, Barber imported some of it and had a wholesale outlet in Coventry Street, Bethnal Green and there were other wholesalers who sold horseflesh that had been produced outside of the London Metropolitan area where HB had the monopoly on production.

Cats were said to prefer their meat fresh and a little on the pink side. If CAL got involved in the carrying of such meat, he might well have ended up with a few smears on his apron.

Hi Gary,

You're probably already aware of it, but there's an interesting court case in the ELO describing John Barber supposedly selling horse flesh that was then used for human consumption by Londoners. This was at a knacker's yard in Marshgate-Lane, West Ham.

It describes butchers going to the knacker's yard in their own wagons to pick up the flesh.

I suppose it is possible the knackers used Pickford's to deliver meat to butchers around London, but is there any direct evidence for it? As I say, the court case describes various butchers using their own wagons/carts to pick up the meat.

ELO 27 August 1887 page 5.

[MrBarnett]

I know enough to know how slaughterhouses work. they don't receive shipments of fresh, bleeding meat. They turn live horses into meat, bones. hooves, hair, and hides.



Thanks for the link. Did you miss that it starts with the source I quote?

And did you read the nearly 1000 posts that followed?I’m guessing not.

Do you know the difference between knackers and slaughterhouses? Again, I’m guessing not, or you would have known that knackers didn’t only process live animals.

[MrBarnett]

"But now for the 'meat,' which, cut into such joints as the trade require, has been boiling in the coppers and is now done to a turn, with just the central tint of redness and rawness that suits the harmless, necessary cat, while the 'tripe' is doing white in another copper to suit the palate of the less fastidious dog."

And that cat's meat would be shipped in some sort of packaging.

Harrison Barber also shipped their cat's meat to their own depots.

"Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators, used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

Fiver,

Congratulations on having managed post 1 on the JTR Forums HB thread. Keep going well into the 900s and you may well end up knowing something about the subject.

Gary

[Abby Normal]

Curiously I wonder if either actually tried to wake Polly by giving her a gentle pat on the face, or talking to her? I know it's not mentioned but it seems the natural thing to do to a unconscious person.

good question columbo. yes it does seem like the natural thing to do, same as trying to sit someone up, to see if theyll come round.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary,

You're probably already aware of it, but there's an interesting court case in the ELO describing John Barber supposedly selling horse flesh that was then used for human consumption by Londoners. This was at a knacker's yard in Marshgate-Lane, West Ham.

It describes butchers going to the knacker's yard in their own wagons to pick up the flesh.

I suppose it is possible the knackers used Pickford's to deliver meat to butchers around London, but is there any direct evidence for it? As I say, the court case describes various butchers using their own wagons/carts to pick up the meat.

ELO 27 August 1887 page 5.

Not sure where to start here, RJ.

Pickfords would not have delivered knackers meat to butchers because it contravened the various knacker’s acts. The very definition of a knacker is someone not producing butcher’s meat. But they would - they did - deliver it to cats meat wholesalers. And, yes, there is evidence that they did so.


I’m not sure, though, what the relevance of the John Barber case (which you can find on the JTRForums HB thread) has to do with deliveries from Broad Street. Pickfords, and later Carter Patterson, were the only carriers, apart from the LNWR themselves, who handled goods from the station.

[MrBarnett]

I would think this would put a hole in the Cross killing Chapman theory, but only if he was delivering meat. he would need to be there before 5a I would think.

What’s being described here are the collections of cat’s meat by retailers and wholesalers from HB. HB’s deliveries of provincial meat would have to have taken place before their customers turned up. So why does a delivery, say, from Broad Street to HB’s wholesale depot in Bethnal Green between 4 and 5 prevent Lechmere from being in or near Hanbury Street at 5.30? Quite the opposite - it would put him there at exactly the right time.

[Columbo]

What’s being described here are the collections of cat’s meat by retailers and wholesalers from HB. Their deliveries of provincial meat would have to have taken place before their customers turned up. So why does a delivery, say, from Broad Street to HB’s wholesale depot in Bethnal Green between 4 and 5 prevent Lechmere from being in or near Hanbury Street at 5.30? Quite the opposite - it would put him there at exactly the right time.

Provided he could get to work at 4a, get a loaded cart or help load one depending on what his job was, get to his location and unload well before 5:30a so that he can be at that destination, park his cart and horse and start skulking around for a victim. Not to mention he would need to be delivering meat in the first place, which we don't know that he did.

[MrBarnett]

Provided he could get to work at 4a, get a loaded cart or help load one depending on what his job was, get to his location and unload well before 5:30a so that he can be at that destination, park his cart and horse and start skulking around for a victim. Not to mention he would need to be delivering meat in the first place, which we don't know that he did.

I’m not saying he did. I’m saying there’s not sufficient evidence that he couldn’t have done so, that he had an ‘alibi’ for Chapman.

The Lechmere family connections to the horse flesh trade make it slightly more plausible that that’s what he carried.

[rjpalmer]

Not sure where to start here, RJ.

Thanks, Gary. Yes, I suppose I formulated my question very poorly, but you answered it nonetheless, if Pickford's is known to have delivered cat's meat.

It's taken me a while to grasp why you think Lechmere's mother selling cat's meat is a link to Lechmere hauling knacker's meat for Pickford's, but maybe I've been too rash in dismissing it.

It could be true, but if a woman runs a petrol station and her son is a truck driver, it doesn't necessarily follow that he hauls petrol.

On the other hand, if he had hauled petrol for years, and had obviously made contracts with petrol stations through his work, I suppose he might have come to realize it was a lucrative business for a family member. A natural sort of 'spin off' from observations & contacts he made through his own work. Or I suppose it could have even worked the other way round, and a cat's meat seller might have found an 'in' with a bloke who was hauling meat from the knackers.

And, as you note, the grandson also followed in the cat's meat trade. The Lechmere threads are so vast and scattered around that I haven't read them all, but I suppose James Hardiman has been used to supply a theoretical link between Hanbury Street and Lechmere.

[MrBarnett]

Yeah, I've always thought that David Orsam's article on "Cutting Point", was a good and fair analysis of Christer's book.

Did you find the Signature section ‘good’ and ‘fair’?