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Charles Cross (Lechmere)

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  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

    What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

    So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

    I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

    If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

    But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

    If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he simply been innocently walking to wogrk.
    i misread the original, sorry.
    Yes so let me correct, shortest routes only this time

    At 3.5mph it's between 19 and 22 minutes from Browns yard to Eldon street entrance at Pickfords

    At 5mph it's between a shade under 14 - about 15 minutes

    David Orsam said he managed it via Hanbury Street in 13 minutes 30 seconds

    Sorry for that.

    Steve
    Last edited by Elamarna; 08-05-2021, 07:24 PM.

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  • The Baron
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post


    I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

    Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.


    Exactly Roger.

    But for some spiritual esoterical reasons, they want to take the carman road. They don't believe in a phantom killer, but thy believe happily in a the phantom client.



    The Baron

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    It would have had to have been a spur-of-the-moment murder I’d have thought?
    When I asked Christer about this conundrum, I was told that this was a crime of opportunity (or, as you say, a 'spur of the moment murder') and Polly Nichols was already standing in Buck's Row, having just serviced a client, and this is why the crime occurred when it did, and where it did. (Most of us imagine the Ripper being led into a backstreet or back court by his victims, as per 'normal' street prostitution. The obvious choice in Polly's case would have been her picking up a client in the Whitechapel Road).

    I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

    Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

    depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

    25 minutes is a good average.

    But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

    Steve
    Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

    What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

    So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

    I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

    If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

    But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

    If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he been innocently walking to work.
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 08-05-2021, 06:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

    depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

    25 minutes is a good average.

    But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

    Steve
    Cheers Steve

    Leave a comment:


  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?
    depends on route he took, but leaving about 3.30 he could certainly arrive before 4..

    25 minutes is a good average.

    But if he walked at 5mph, he could do it in around 20minutes.

    Steve

    Leave a comment:


  • Columbo
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Have you read my posts? I’m arguing against the statement that Lechmere had an alibi for Chapman. Which would mean that either that there is evidence that he was somewhere else when she was killed, or it is so implausible that he could have been anywhere near Hanbury Street at the time that it is not even worth considering. I’m not trying to place him at Hanbury Street I’m arguing that he could have been there.

    I use the horseflesh example because that trade has some resonance in the Lechmere family and was handled by Pickfords, but he could have carried just about anything to just about anywhere, including to locations near Hanbury Street that didn’t take very long to unload.
    Whoops, my apologies. I misunderstood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

    If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

    Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
    Cheers Roger,

    I couldn’t remember but was thinking 15-20 minutes. He was leaving it a bit late to commit a murder I’ve always thought? If he was interrupted by the sound of Paul approaching this suggests that he might have intended further mutilation? He’d also have been aware of police patrolling which might have required him to hide somewhere until one or two passed safely by. It would have had to have been a spur-of-the-moment murder I’d have thought? A killer that avoided capture tends to point to a level of awareness/cunning/control? I believe that Neil had previously passed at around 3.15 but it’s not likely that Lechmere would have loitered around from say 3.20 to 3.40 though so we still have a murder committed 30 minutes or less before being due at work twenty minutes away. Just seems unlikely to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?
    Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

    If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

    Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    How long would it have taken Lechmere to walk from the murder site to his workplace?

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Originally posted by Columbo View Post

    Curiously I wonder if either actually tried to wake Polly by giving her a gentle pat on the face, or talking to her? I know it's not mentioned but it seems the natural thing to do to a unconscious person.
    As far as the evidence goes, they didn't, Columbo. But giving her a gentle pad on the face or shaking her a bit by the shoulders seems something that Paul could have done before Lechmere knew it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Columbo View Post
    Absolutely a driver could specialize. But did Cross specialize is the question. I would think Pickfords could answer this question as they’re still in business, and even reference this connection on their website. I would think a driver would have a regular route back then, but what was Cross’ route? Because he’s suspected you’re trying to place him at Hanbury street with no evidence he even covered that area on his job.
    Have you read my posts? I’m arguing against the statement that Lechmere had an alibi for Chapman. Which would mean that either that there is evidence that he was somewhere else when she was killed, or it is so implausible that he could have been anywhere near Hanbury Street at the time that it is not even worth considering. I’m not trying to place him at Hanbury Street I’m arguing that he could have been there.

    I use the horseflesh example because that trade has some resonance in the Lechmere family and was handled by Pickfords, but he could have carried just about anything to just about anywhere, including to locations near Hanbury Street that didn’t take very long to unload.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    I've asked around old Pickford employees and in the modern era, drivers definately had runs. I've also been told that in Victorian times Pickfords would do it on first in line basis, but I've yet to see that confirmed anywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • Columbo
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    You’d imagine drivers might specialise, though, wouldn’t you? Certain trains carrying certain goods arrived at certain times. Might not the same drivers, with experience of the goods, customers and routes have carried them each day? I believe there was a certain amount of shuffling of drivers to discourage theft/collusion, but who’d want to nick a cart load of (potentially diseased) horseflesh?

    Absolutely a driver could specialize. But did Cross specialize is the question. I would think Pickfords could answer this question as they’re still in business, and even reference this connection on their website. I would think a driver would have a regular route back then, but what was Cross’ route? Because he’s suspected you’re trying to place him at Hanbury street with no evidence he even covered that area on his job.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >>David Orsam's "Breaking Point" is a good balanced and unbiased overall take on Fisherman's book,<<

    Steve is biased because Christer keeps insulting him, but David isn't???

    Lawende was silenced thread posts:

    "Watch your tongue, David …The only misleading and smearing here is signed David Orsam, and it is very unbecoming."

    Post #356

    "Now I really canīt be bothered with somebody who cannot read English. See you some other day."

    Post #414

    "Meaningless" is the word - applying to your pathetic attempts at baconsaving, David."

    Post # 429

    "Dear me, David. You are hellbent to inflict as much damage as you can, are you not?
    It is a waste of time, let me tell you that. But by all means, keep making a fool of yourself. It saves me valuable time."


    Blood Oozing thread posts:

    #319


    "You are trying to misrepresent me, and you are trying to create the impression that I am a devious person who consciously misled Payne-James.
    Thatīs the bad news.The good news is that you are making a farce of the effort."


    Post # 526

    "If you can't produce the material, you will of course have revealed yourself as a trader of complete bogus."

    Post #531

    "I do on (sic) fact worry somewhat about David, who seems to have suffered a breakdown of sorts."

    Just a random selection, dozens more out there.

    If not being insulted by Christer is a qualification for reviewing the book, the book is unreviewable!



    David ends his review thus,

    "Why tell us fairy tales about the blood evidence when we already know from a forensic pathology expert that blood can easily ooze from a body for twenty minutes after death, meaning that it's absurd to find anything suspicious as against Lechmere in the oozing? Why tell us fairy tales about '100 signatures' in the name of Lechmere, especially while refusing to reveal what they are? Why omit the word 'about' from Lechmere's evidence and create a fairy tale of a supposed major gap in timings? All these things, which Holmgren seems to term as 'mischievous' but which might well be regarded as devious, spoil the argument completely. There is surely another way to tell the story without resorting to sophistry. It's unnecessary and self-defeating."


    I'm genuinely staggered that people should make such a fuss about a well written and balanced sentence from Steve as,

    "Some of it is pure imagination, such as his claim that Robert Paul was a hundred yards or more from Lechmere when he first became aware of him. He may have been, but I don’t know any source in which Lechmere says how far Paul was away from him when he first became aware of his presence."

    Valid criticism isn't bias, it is just valid criticism, whether it comes from David or Steve.

    Leave a comment:

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