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Assessing Spooner’s Timing.

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  • Assessing Spooner’s Timing.

    It’s annoying when a witness gives confused/confusing evidence which is what Spooner did in relation to the time that he arrived at Dutfield’s Yard so we are forced to assess from what was said. Vagueness can lead to differing interpretations of course and this has happened in the case of Spooner and so we have to assess without preconception. So....

    “Between half-past 12 and 1 o’clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along....”

    So is he saying at after talking for 25 minutes (when he saw the 2 Jews) it was any time between 12.30 and 1.00? Or, is he saying that he got to the corner of Christian and Fairclough between 12.30 and 1.00 and then stood talking for 25 minutes? Taking him to 12.55? And how does he ‘guess’ at 25 minutes with no watch? Then, when at the yard....

    “I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.”

    This ‘last witness’ was PC Lamb of course. We can’t know the exact time of his arrival of course because he didn’t have a watch but we can give a very close approximation of around 1.05ish. Errors of judgment can be made of course but how likely was it that Spooner mistook 25 minutes for a mere 5 minutes? Then we have the most confusing part...

    “The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the publichouse. I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard.”

    Spooner is clear at least that he had no watch nor was he estimating the time after access to a clock. He estimates 5 minutes at the top of the street then estimates 25 minutes and arrives at 12.35 as a time for his arrival at the yard. This goes against the time that Diemschutz said that he discovered the body and the time that the 2 Jews were heard running along yelling ‘murder.’ PC Smith said that he passed along Berner Street between 12.30 and 12.35 and so how did he miss all of this?

    And so what is the likeliest? Spooner arrived at 12.35 based on an estimate which jars with everything else that we know or did he actually arrive 5 minutes before PC Lamb arrived - I’ll call this time ‘just after 1.00’ bearing in mind that we have to accept the lack of watches and clocks and so a couple of minutes here and there have to be reasonably allowed for.



    7
    Spooner arrived just after 1.00
    100.00%
    7
    Spooner arrived at 12.35
    0%
    0
    Regards

    Herlock



    Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

  • #2
    Jeezo, Herlock!

    Some of these timing conundrums make my brain ache!

    I need to go away and think about it, then have a little like down in a dark room before voting on this one.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
      Jeezo, Herlock!

      Some of these timing conundrums make my brain ache!

      I need to go away and think about it, then have a little like down in a dark room before voting on this one.....
      Its not the clearest of statements is it

      Id still say that it has to be just after 1.00 though.
      Regards

      Herlock



      Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

      Comment


      • #4
        Spooner's timings are all admitted estimations based on points of time that are not reliable (in terms of providing accurate times) such as the closing of public houses. However there is one point of time verified by a reliable witnesses (PC Lamb - accompanied by PC Collins) which strongly suggests that Spooner arrived at the club at around 1.00am. Lamb's timings fit those of other witnesses and his arrival at the scene five minutes later than Spooner is a much more reliable estimate than Spooner's other guesstimates, IMHO.
        Last edited by etenguy; 04-23-2021, 12:02 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by etenguy View Post
          Spooner's timings are all admitted estimations based on points of time that are not reliable (in terms of providing accurate times) such as the closing of public houses. However there is one point of time verified by a reliable witnesses (PC Lamb - accompanied by PC Collins) which strongly suggests that Spooner arrived at the club at around 1.00am. Lamb's timings fit those of other witnesses and his arrival at the scene five minutes later than Spooner is a much more reliable estimate than Spooner's other guesstimates, IMHO.
          It has to be the most reasonably assessment of his statement Eten? After all he could easily have been mistaken about pub closing times by seeing lights go out without taking into consideration that the licensee might have cleaning up for twenty minutes. Pubs opened early of course so he might not have wanted to do the job when he got up. Also the 25 minute part is more than a little vague. The mention of seeing Lamb arrive is fairly conclusive to me.

          Regards

          Herlock



          Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

          Comment

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