If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the EN interview, Fanny is asked:

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club."

Movement near the club might have included men like Lave. So when Fanny is quoted as saying...

A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates.

... she presumably means she did not see anyone enter the gates, when she supposes the deed must have been done. That was in the several minutes prior to lockup. We can determine roughly when those several minutes were, because she then says...

It was soon after one o'clock when I went out...

...which was after hearing the commotion outside. Did she get the time right, though? Well it lines up pretty well with this account in the DN. Oct 1:

Julius Minsky, a Polish Jew, and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs. They had finished the evening's discussion, and were amusing themselves with singing. The utmost joviality was prevailing when a member rushed excitedly into the room, and shouted out that the body of a murdered woman had been found in the yard. The singing was at once stopped, and all present rushed downstairs in a state of the utmost alarm into the yard. The first thing he noticed was the pool of blood by the kitchen door, and then glancing up the yard to the spot where Mr. Diemschitz was holding a lighted match in his hand, he noticed the body of a woman stretched out by the side of the wall. He was very much frightened himself, and remained in the doorway. Even from there he could plainly see the terrible gash that had been made in the neck. He had been in the club all night, and, so far as he knew, only one member came in before one o'clock. When the police came up they entered the club, and searched the persons of all present.

Note that Minsky observed the pool of blood by the kitchen door. The murder must have occurred several minutes prior.

Having told us when she went out, Mortimer then, somewhat confusingly, steps back in time...

...and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School.



Fanny may have lied. We cannot say who had reason to lie, until both the murderer is known, and all the important aspects of the murder are known. To say; person X had no reason to lie, is equivalent to saying; we can trust person X.

You’re reading between lines again. Anyone that had any ‘connection’ with the club would have been mentioned. A man entering the gates would very obviously have been mentioned. A woman standing at the gates or entering them would certainly have been mentioned (and Fanny would certainly have told the police if the dead woman was the one that she’d seen standing at the gates earlier.)

And so we can doubt ‘Schwartz.’ We can suggest that Eagle’s time was off. We can suggest that Smith was incorrect. But we cannot deny that Stride arrived at Dutfield’s Yard. I don’t think that any of us are suggesting that she stood around in that yard for any length of time?

She walked from point a (take your pick) to point b (the yard) and neither Fanny Mortimer nor anyone else saw her arrive.

The conclusion is inescapable….from 12.45 until 1.00 Fanny Mortimer couldn’t have been on her doorstep. It’s basic. And when we add the fact that she’d gone onto her doorstep after Smith passed (and we have Smiths estimated time) I can’t see why anyone would have a problem?

……

There’s another ‘scenario’ of course. If we accept the margin for error on estimated times then we would have to allow for the possibility that Schwartz time wasn’t exact. So what if Schwartz saw the incident between 12.50 and 12.55? Perhaps this ‘allows’ for a more acceptable gap between Fanny going back inside and hearing the disturbance?

There are multiple possible scenarios and so I’ll repeat……this is why Fanny Mortimer simply cannot be used to dismiss Schwartz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does the following report encapsulate the entire incident? The People, Oct 7:

The police authorities who have the inquiries with respect to the murders in hand, have received a statement with regard to the murder in Berner street that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground, but that it being thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, no notice was taken of it.

Schwartz doesn't seem to have said anything about a man and wife, and his first man is aged about 30. This age is repeated in the Star. After the Star interview, Schwartz seems to disappear from history. Do you really think we have the whole picture?



I don't understand this line of reasoning at all. Frankly, it seems like part of the game of; let's move people around until Theatrical Man's story makes sense. Fanny was on the loo. Brown was at the shop. The couple had left to get coffees at Spectacle Alley. The vigilance committee patrolman were not on Berner street.

All that the couple require to place themselves near the scene, before and after the murder, is to have seen and heard men running off and crying "Police!, Murder!". They spoke to Mortimer and press, and they did not get takeaway coffees.

I don’t think that there’s any attempt to shoehorn Schwartz into the story. From my point of view I could easily say that all of these attempts at trying to suggest who might or might not have been mentioned by witnesses appears to be ‘a game’ of trying to validate others witnesses.

The fact remains that due to the era we cannot be certain as to times being exactly as stated. I do accuse Michael of trying to rigidly stick to times but I don’t think that you are resistant to this suggestion? I assume that you agree that we have to allow for a reasonable margin for error in all witnesses (even police officers although, in general, that have a greater reason for being aware of the times than people just loitering around and doing normal ‘stuff?’

So if we take the above as a given then we have multiple possible scenarios. Granted that they are all almost the same but they can vary minutely. A minute can make a huge difference of course. As can a few seconds. A few seconds can mean that (a) didn’t see (b) even though they both claimed to have been at the same location at the same time.

I don’t thing that anyone could take exception to the last two paragraphs. So I have to ask why we keep trying to ‘prove’ that Schwartz wasn’t there? It cannot be proved. Fanny only estimated 12.45 but she was clear about hearing Smith pass by. So do we have to believe that Smith was 10 or 15 minutes out? Or is it likelier that Fanny was 10 minutes or so out? We can’t know for certain but surely the former is the more likely?

There’s nothing that disproves Schwartz. Most witnesses give an honest version of what they did (accepting that errors can be made of course) so the odds are in favour of Schwartz. Then we can add the fact that the police continued to treat him as a valid witness into November and they never stated that they decided that he was either unreliable or a liar.

So why are we still trying to prove that Schwartz wasn’t there. It makes it even less reasonable when you’ve stated that you accept that he might have been there. It’s seems to me like this is argument for the sake of argument. When so much is cloudy, one this is as clear and irrefutable as can be…….Fanny Mortimer cannot be used to disprove Schwartz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Okay I'll think about it. Random cryptic clues are fun, though. Btw, I have more than one suspect!

I wait with bated breath. I hope it’s not Fanny Mortimer

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You’re reading between lines again. Anyone that had any ‘connection’ with the club would have been mentioned. A man entering the gates would very obviously have been mentioned. A woman standing at the gates or entering them would certainly have been mentioned (and Fanny would certainly have told the police if the dead woman was the one that she’d seen standing at the gates earlier.)

If you want to play a game of "Why didn't X see Y" - no problem.

Eagle: I came back about twenty minutes to one, and, finding the front door closed, I went through the gateway and got into the yard, and thus through the back door into the club.

So if Fanny ought to have seen him enter the yard at 12:40 but didn't, then she must not have gone to her door immediately after Smith's passing, but rather a good few minutes after. So that would put her on her door, just in time to catch Mr Theatrical & co. I guess she just didn't regard the action as all that unusual.

And so we can doubt ‘Schwartz.’ We can suggest that Eagle’s time was off. We can suggest that Smith was incorrect. But we cannot deny that Stride arrived at Dutfield’s Yard. I don’t think that any of us are suggesting that she stood around in that yard for any length of time?

Run that one by George.

She walked from point a (take your pick) to point b (the yard) and neither Fanny Mortimer nor anyone else saw her arrive.

The conclusion is inescapable….from 12.45 until 1.00 Fanny Mortimer couldn’t have been on her doorstep. It’s basic. And when we add the fact that she’d gone onto her doorstep after Smith passed (and we have Smiths estimated time) I can’t see why anyone would have a problem?

Didn't she hear pony & cart arrive a few minutes after locking up?

There’s another ‘scenario’ of course. If we accept the margin for error on estimated times then we would have to allow for the possibility that Schwartz time wasn’t exact. So what if Schwartz saw the incident between 12.50 and 12.55? Perhaps this ‘allows’ for a more acceptable gap between Fanny going back inside and hearing the disturbance?

That time period is as good as guess as any for the murder. Now if you want to believe that BS threw her around at the gates, in full view of a witness, and then somehow managed to lay her down gently when he killed her, then that's up to you to argue for.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So why are we still trying to prove that Schwartz wasn’t there. It makes it even less reasonable when you’ve stated that you accept that he might have been there. It’s seems to me like this is argument for the sake of argument. When so much is cloudy, one this is as clear and irrefutable as can be…….Fanny Mortimer cannot be used to disprove Schwartz.

Doorstep busybodies, couples, passers-by, patrolmen. It doesn't matter who we're talking about - according to Herlock they are all called Fanny Mortimer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
You’re reading between lines again. Anyone that had any ‘connection’ with the club would have been mentioned. A man entering the gates would very obviously have been mentioned. A woman standing at the gates or entering them would certainly have been mentioned (and Fanny would certainly have told the police if the dead woman was the one that she’d seen standing at the gates earlier.)

If you want to play a game of "Why didn't X see Y" - no problem.

Eagle: I came back about twenty minutes to one, and, finding the front door closed, I went through the gateway and got into the yard, and thus through the back door into the club.

So if Fanny ought to have seen him enter the yard at 12:40 but didn't, then she must not have gone to her door immediately after Smith's passing, but rather a good few minutes after. So that would put her on her door, just in time to catch Mr Theatrical & co. I guess she just didn't regard the action as all that unusual.

Or “He returned to the club about 25 minutes to 1.” So he might have returned in the short gap between the passing of Smith and Fanny going onto her doorstep.

And so we can doubt ‘Schwartz.’ We can suggest that Eagle’s time was off. We can suggest that Smith was incorrect. But we cannot deny that Stride arrived at Dutfield’s Yard. I don’t think that any of us are suggesting that she stood around in that yard for any length of time?

Run that one by George.

She walked from point a (take your pick) to point b (the yard) and neither Fanny Mortimer nor anyone else saw her arrive.

The conclusion is inescapable….from 12.45 until 1.00 Fanny Mortimer couldn’t have been on her doorstep. It’s basic. And when we add the fact that she’d gone onto her doorstep after Smith passed (and we have Smiths estimated time) I can’t see why anyone would have a problem?

Didn't she hear pony & cart arrive a few minutes after locking up?

15 minutes is a few minutes.

There’s another ‘scenario’ of course. If we accept the margin for error on estimated times then we would have to allow for the possibility that Schwartz time wasn’t exact. So what if Schwartz saw the incident between 12.50 and 12.55? Perhaps this ‘allows’ for a more acceptable gap between Fanny going back inside and hearing the disturbance?

That time period is as good as guess as any for the murder. Now if you want to believe that BS threw her around at the gates, in full view of a witness, and then somehow managed to lay her down gently when he killed her, then that's up to you to argue for.

Im suggesting nothing except the obvious. That we can’t say x occurred at exactly this time or y happened at exactly y time. Surely you don’t dispute this Andrew? This creates doubt on all sides of the debate about what occurred and when. This is why I repeat….I can’t prove that Schwartz was there at 12.45 and you can’t prove that he wasn’t. We can, however, say that the police, who were there at the time and spoke to the witnesses, appeared to believe him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Doorstep busybodies, couples, passers-by, patrolmen. It doesn't matter who we're talking about - according to Herlock they are all called Fanny Mortimer.

. Fanny Mortimer cannot be used to disprove Schwartz

This is a fact. I can’t see why anyone would dispute it.

[GBinOz]

I don’t think that any of us are suggesting that she stood around in that yard for any length of time?

Run that one by George.

Huh?....What?.....Who?....Me?.....Length of time? I think she crossed into the yard just after Smith went past her and just before FM came to her door i.e. about 12:35 (police time). I think she was standing in the yard just inside the street alignment when BS tried to pull her into the street at about 12:45(police time). I don't believe we have any evidence to indicate what she did in that in the interim in that 10 minutes, but we have had plenty of speculation. Eagle testified that, on his return, he didn't see anyone in the yard, dead or alive, so he would have returned before 12:35 (police time). He said he probably did see people in the street but didn't remember.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Surely these 2 were Diemschutz and Kozebrodski?

I just checked the Times, DT, DN & MA. None of these papers have Diemschitz mentioning the name of his search companion. However, we have Eagle saying:

When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street...

There is total ambiguity as to who went out for police. I think this stems from an issue concerning Kozebrodsky.

I think we can all agree that two men raised the alarm with Lamb, those men being Eagle and Koze. Spooner said that two men raised the alarm with him when he was on the corner of Fairclough and Christian. Eagle said Jacobs and another man left in the direction of Fairclough, but Koze said he also went in that direction. Diemshitz testified that he came back with Spooner (who presumably had parted with his girlfriend before then). Koze said " I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers." So either Koze turned of at Batty St before Spooner saw Diemshitz and Jacobs at Christian St, or, Eagle was mistaken about Jacobs and Spooner saw Diemshitz and Koze, in which case Koze either turned up Batty on his return from Grove St and Eagle had left the yard after Diemshitz and Koze and just happened to reach the corner at Commercial Rd at the same time as Koze, or Koze returned to the yard, Eagle was still there, and the two then left together to find Lamb.

Conflicting corroborations: Diemshitz testified that Eagle and Lamb arrived just as Spooner was examining Stride. The running times to where Eagle met Lamb and to Grove St along Fairclough would be very similar, so arriving back at the same time, as Diemshitz said, would indicate that Eagle left at the same time as Koze and hooked up with him at Batty St after Koze turned off on his way to Grove St. However, Spooner said that Lamb arrived at the yard five minutes after he arrived at the yard with Diemshitz. This would tend to support the theory that Koze returned to the yard before departing again with Eagle, except that presuming that they were all running, the round trips shouldn't have taken much more than two minutes. Perhaps Spooner delayed examining Stride a minute or two after arriving? I think the most likely was that Eagle and Koze left at the same time and Koze turned off at Batty and they returned with Lamb at the same time as Diemshitz returned with Spooner.

With regard to Brown's testimony, I think that he saw Collins in the street, being directed by Harris to the yard, and Collins had come to Fairclough in response to the shouts of Diemshitz and Jacobs and possibly the VC whistle from the yard (police whistles in use at the time could be heard at up to a thousand yards).

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Btw, I have more than one suspect!

Don't we all?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Huh?....What?.....Who?....Me?.....Length of time? I think she crossed into the yard just after Smith went past her and just before FM came to her door i.e. about 12:35 (police time). I think she was standing in the yard just inside the street alignment when BS tried to pull her into the street at about 12:45(police time). I don't believe we have any evidence to indicate what she did in that in the interim in that 10 minutes, but we have had plenty of speculation. Eagle testified that, on his return, he didn't see anyone in the yard, dead or alive, so he would have returned before 12:35 (police time). He said he probably did see people in the street but didn't remember.

Cheers, George

The Times has Eagle saying:

As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language. Afterwards I joined my friend, and we sang together.

Which sounds a bit disjointed. Afterwards he joined his friend, where?
Things sound more coherent in the DT:

As soon as I entered the gateway on Saturday night I could hear a friend of mine singing in the upstair room of the club. I went up to him. He was singing in the Russian language, and we sang together. I had been there twenty minutes when a member named Gidleman came upstairs, and said "there is a woman dead in the yard."

So apparently Eagle went upstairs on his return to the club, and sang with his friend in Russian.
The East London Advertiser, Oct 6, does not quote Eagle, but we get this description of his words:

He then went through the gates into the yard to get into the club by the door which led into the passage leading to the yard. He noticed nothing. The width of the passage was about 9ft. 2in., and had there been a man and woman in the yard he must have seen them. He was often in the club late at night, but did not go into the yard often. He had never seen any low women in the yard. The members were all singing in their national language. A friend and he went downstairs once arm-in-arm singing.

Eagle and friend were singing in the yard? Presumably the DT (and DN) got it right - the singing all occurred upstairs. However, the next sentence in the ELA report is:

They saw nothing then, but shortly afterwards a man - Gidlemann, a member of the club - came upstairs and said: "Oh, there is a woman lying dead in the yard!"

If Eagle returned about 12:40, and by 1am there is lots of blood, and for some of the in between he and a comrade are in the yard, could they have missed Stride being there too? She must have stayed along the driveway if she had been there. I cannot imagine what she would have being doing that went completely unnoticed.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think we can all agree that two men raised the alarm with Lamb, those men being Eagle and Koze. Spooner said that two men raised the alarm with him when he was on the corner of Fairclough and Christian. Eagle said Jacobs and another man left in the direction of Fairclough, but Koze said he also went in that direction. Diemshitz testified that he came back with Spooner (who presumably had parted with his girlfriend before then). Koze said " I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers." So either Koze turned of at Batty St before Spooner saw Diemshitz and Jacobs at Christian St, or, Eagle was mistaken about Jacobs and Spooner saw Diemshitz and Koze, in which case Koze either turned up Batty on his return from Grove St and Eagle had left the yard after Diemshitz and Koze and just happened to reach the corner at Commercial Rd at the same time as Koze, or Koze returned to the yard, Eagle was still there, and the two then left together to find Lamb.

Eagle and Kozebrodsky raised the alarm with Lamb? Eagle yes, but I doubt Koz. Eagle claims to have seen Jacobs leaving, and then left himself. He also said Kozebrodsky was with him at the time he lit the match. We see this in Arbeter Fraint...

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

Other than Isaacs, Eagle could have left with Krantz (who had been with Yaffa in the editor's office), Yaffa, or Fridenthal. This is Eagle at the inquest in the Irish Times:

I went up stairs ,and in about twenty minutes a man named Giddleman came rushing in and said "there is a woman lying dead in the yard." I went out, and striking a match found a woman lying with her feet six feet from the gate, near the club wall, with her head to the yard. Others came with me, but seemed frightened to go near. Assuming it was a drunken and not a dead woman before lighting the match I said "get up." There being no reply I then lighted the match and was fearfully upset by seeing a woman lying in a lot of blood. I immediately ran away for a policeman and found two.

So some correspondence with AF. Although we never hear about the editor's office, or anyone in it at the time of the alarm, at the inquest.

Conflicting corroborations: Diemshitz testified that Eagle and Lamb arrived just as Spooner was examining Stride. The running times to where Eagle met Lamb and to Grove St along Fairclough would be very similar, so arriving back at the same time, as Diemshitz said, would indicate that Eagle left at the same time as Koze and hooked up with him at Batty St after Koze turned off on his way to Grove St. However, Spooner said that Lamb arrived at the yard five minutes after he arrived at the yard with Diemshitz. This would tend to support the theory that Koze returned to the yard before departing again with Eagle, except that presuming that they were all running, the round trips shouldn't have taken much more than two minutes. Perhaps Spooner delayed examining Stride a minute or two after arriving? I think the most likely was that Eagle and Koze left at the same time and Koze turned off at Batty and they returned with Lamb at the same time as Diemshitz returned with Spooner.

I think Kozebrodsky wants us to believe that he went out searching, yet that is not the case. Diemschitz and Eagle both had the chance at the inquest to say that he went with them, but neither make this claim. This must be a clue to something happening while he stayed back.

With regard to Brown's testimony, I think that he saw Collins in the street, being directed by Harris to the yard, and Collins had come to Fairclough in response to the shouts of Diemshitz and Jacobs and possibly the VC whistle from the yard (police whistles in use at the time could be heard at up to a thousand yards).

So Spooner meets Harris while hastening to Berner street, and Harris also managed to direct Collins to the yard, who was seen standing at the same intersection as Spooner had been? If Collins had heard the whistle, why was standing at the corner, and not moving in the direction of that whistle? More importantly, how did Collins not beat Lamb to the yard?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Times has Eagle saying:

As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language. Afterwards I joined my friend, and we sang together.

Which sounds a bit disjointed. Afterwards he joined his friend, where?
Things sound more coherent in the DT:

As soon as I entered the gateway on Saturday night I could hear a friend of mine singing in the upstair room of the club. I went up to him. He was singing in the Russian language, and we sang together. I had been there twenty minutes when a member named Gidleman came upstairs, and said "there is a woman dead in the yard."

So apparently Eagle went upstairs on his return to the club, and sang with his friend in Russian.
The East London Advertiser, Oct 6, does not quote Eagle, but we get this description of his words:

He then went through the gates into the yard to get into the club by the door which led into the passage leading to the yard. He noticed nothing. The width of the passage was about 9ft. 2in., and had there been a man and woman in the yard he must have seen them. He was often in the club late at night, but did not go into the yard often. He had never seen any low women in the yard. The members were all singing in their national language. A friend and he went downstairs once arm-in-arm singing.

Eagle and friend were singing in the yard? Presumably the DT (and DN) got it right - the singing all occurred upstairs. However, the next sentence in the ELA report is:

They saw nothing then, but shortly afterwards a man - Gidlemann, a member of the club - came upstairs and said: "Oh, there is a woman lying dead in the yard!"

If Eagle returned about 12:40, and by 1am there is lots of blood, and for some of the in between he and a comrade are in the yard, could they have missed Stride being there too? She must have stayed along the driveway if she had been there. I cannot imagine what she would have being doing that went completely unnoticed.

Here we go again. You’re looking for every single, insignificant article written using different wording by different reporters and desperately trying to sow the seeds of doubt. Nothing about the above quotes suggest that Eagle went into the yard between the time that he returned and the time that the body was discovered (1.00 btw) Even if Eagle and his friend did go ‘downstairs once’ it doesn’t mean that they went outside.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here we go again. You’re looking for every single, insignificant article written using different wording by different reporters and desperately trying to sow the seeds of doubt. Nothing about the above quotes suggest that Eagle went into the yard between the time that he returned and the time that the body was discovered (1.00 btw) Even if Eagle and his friend did go ‘downstairs once’ it doesn’t mean that they went outside.

They saw nothing then - doesn't mean they couldn't find the Tim Tams in the kitchen. Of course it means they went outside.

I wonder if Stride and companion went into the yard, the better to hear their singing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

So Spooner meets Harris while hastening to Berner street, and Harris also managed to direct Collins to the yard, who was seen standing at the same intersection as Spooner had been? If Collins had heard the whistle, why was standing at the corner, and not moving in the direction of that whistle? More importantly, how did Collins not beat Lamb to the yard?

Brown:

“Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.”

This wasn’t just a brief glance at a shadowy figure in the distance. He quite clearly saw a Policeman.

If he was standing when Brown first saw him this might have been for a second or two when the man spoke to him to tell him exactly where the incident was. We can’t know who this man was but it didn’t have to be any one of Spooner/Diemschutz/Koz. It could have been someone that heard of the incident but didn’t go to the yard. Perhaps it was someone in a nearby house who had heard about events through an open window. Perhaps he was undressed for bed or actually in bed at the time? He talks a couple of minutes to get dressed and exits his front door as Collins arrives. This man tells Collins where the incident has occurred and at that point Brown sees them. Then they run to the yard and Lamb is already there.

Or if you intend to say that the policeman stood there alone until the man spoke to him then….we have Collins arriving on the spot where Brown saw him. He doesn’t know the location of the incident though so he stops for a second or two to look around to see if he can see any kind of movement that might point him in the right direction. At that point Brown sees him him and the other guy appears to tell him about Berner Street.