If Schwartz Lied ...

[GBinOz]

Easy-peasy, George. The answer is right there in the Times report...

... according to one account a lad first made the discovery and gave information to a man named Costa, who proceeded to the spot, where almost immediately afterwards a constable arrived.

It was the constable referred to.

Hi Andrew,

Herlock's proposal was never going to fly, but he did acknowledge the fixed point officer was still on duty so Lamb must have been summoned before 1 o'clock.

The police whistle was used to summon help from other constables to a crime scene. Had Lamb used it before running to the yard after Eagle and Koz found him, the summoned police constables would have converged on Commercial Road and found no one there. Lamb used his whistle at the appropriate time, when he had established a crime scene at the yard.

But that doesn't help your case either. A constable doesn't arrive first at a crime scene, blow his whistle and then evanesce. Who was the constable, where is his report, why wasn't he called to the inquest? You'll have to come up with a better explanation than that.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But that doesn't help your case either. A constable doesn't arrive first at a crime scene, blow his whistle and then evanesce. Who was the constable, where is his report, why wasn't he called to the inquest? You'll have to come up with a better explanation than that.

I'll try. All I can think of so far, is that this constable then ran along Fairclough street, to get assistance.

James Brown: When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

[GBinOz]

I'll try. All I can think of so far, is that this constable then ran along Fairclough street, to get assistance.

James Brown: When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Hi Andrew,

I would think that he was hearing Diemshitz and Jacobs running towards Grove St. The Constable would have been the second of the two constables seen by Smith when he arrived, the other being Lamb, remembering that the fixed point constable (Ayliffe) had already departed for the doctor. Once again, he wouldn't be using his whistle when not located at the crime scene.

The thought that I have, and this is pure speculation without a shred of evidence, is that perhaps one of the men in the club that night was member of the Vigilance Committee and he had come into possession of a whistle, but why wouldn't he have said so? Were Police whistles strickly for the use of the police with consequences for utilisation by others?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Andrew,

Herlock's proposal was never going to fly, but he did acknowledge the fixed point officer was still on duty so Lamb must have been summoned before 1 o'clock.

The police whistle was used to summon help from other constables to a crime scene. Had Lamb used it before running to the yard after Eagle and Koz found him, the summoned police constables would have converged on Commercial Road and found no one there. Lamb used his whistle at the appropriate time, when he had established a crime scene at the yard.

But that doesn't help your case either. A constable doesn't arrive first at a crime scene, blow his whistle and then evanesce. Who was the constable, where is his report, why wasn't he called to the inquest? You'll have to come up with a better explanation than that.

Cheers, George

Here we go again. Another example of you saying something that is blatantly untrue even after it’s been explained to you.

Monty explained to us how Fixed Point Duty Officers knew that their shift ended. Either by the Duty Sergeant who walked around ‘rounding up’ his officers or by an officer that had been appointed to do that duty instead. So, you might want to try explaining how that person would have managed to have gone to all of his fixed point officers and relieve all of them of their duties at exactly 1.00?

No?

Didn't think so. So it could easily have been after 1.00 with the Fixed Point Officer waiting to be told to return to the station.

[GBinOz]

Here we go again. Another example of you saying something that is blatantly untrue even after it’s been explained to you.

Monty explained to us how Fixed Point Duty Officers knew that their shift ended. Either by the Duty Sergeant who walked around ‘rounding up’ his officers or by an officer that had been appointed to do that duty instead. So, you might want to try explaining how that person would have managed to have gone to all of his fixed point officers and relieve all of them of their duties at exactly 1.00?

No?

Didn't think so. So it could easily have been after 1.00 with the Fixed Point Officer waiting to be told to return to the station.

Hi Herlock,

Have you considered that perhaps Lamb was "an officer that had been appointed to do that duty instead", since he had just passed the Harris clock which was on his beat, and Smith's beat, and was likely used (with corrections) as a part of the local time keeping structure?

Do you agree that police whistles were meant to enlist the assistance of other PC's to the location of the crime scene, so the only place a PC should have blown his whistle was at the yard?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

Hi Herlock,

Below are: in black, my original comment; in bold, your reply; in blue, my reply to your reply.

It is not consistant to dismiss Spooner's 12:35 time and then to use his arriving 5 minutes before Lamb time to overule Diemshitz saying that he arrived at the same time as Lamb.
How can anyone, no matter who, look at the events in Berner Street dis-action at Ely and consider, even for a millisecond, that Spooner might have returned to Dutfield’s Yard with Diemschutz at 12.35!? It’s simply wrong George. It didn’t happen. And yet, in the very same statement he says 5 minutes before Lamb. Now whether Lamb arrived at 1.05ish or nearer to 1.00 as you suggest, how can it not be too much of a stretch to say that Spooner was wrong by 25 minutes?! Come on George. Spooner was wrong about 12.35. Without a doubt.
You are missing the point. I said it is inconsistant to dismiss Spooner's obviously incorrect 12:35 on one hand, but to then on the other hand use Spooner saying he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb to overule Diemshitz saying that Spooner arrived at the same time as Lamb.

What reason did Diemshitz have for lying? The problem with conjecture about seeing clocks arises when it is applied positively to favoured witnesses and negatively to witnesses whose testimony doesn't suit.
Diemschutz had no reason to lie. Diemschutz seeing a clock isn’t a conjecture George. It’s a fact (unless you think he lied.)
Again you have missed the point. I was asking what reason would Diemshitz have for lying about Spooner arrived at the same time as Lamb. Nothing to do with the Harris clock.

I'm not about conspiracy, I'm talking about consistancy and not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when talking about dodgy time guesstimates.
Thats a false accusation. I have not done that. Ever.
"Therefore Eagle strongly points to Stride’s body being discovered at 1.00."
"Pretty reasonable timing gauges I’d say. So this takes his time of hearing the cries for a Constable to just the right time that Diemschutz and Kozebrodski passed."
These are your conclusions for the long dodgy guesstimates of Eagle and Brown.

Read the reports on the inquest. Lamb said he arrived 10-12 minutes before the first doctor. He said he closed the gates while the doctor was examining the body. Johnson said Lamb closed the gates while was examining the body. Blackwell said the gates were closed when he arrived. When he was recalled he actually mentioned this mistake.
Unimportant.
This was my answer to your question "Where did he mistake Johnston for Blackwell?" You neither acknowledged or refuted, just dismissed.


You keep using "the Grassy Knoll" as a form of disparagement of people's opinions. Were you alive when Kennedy was assassinated. I was, and was glued to the coverage as it happened, have studied it ever since, and I daresay that I know more about it than those who use the term as a pejorative.
I use the term to describe people who see conspiracies everywhere. Who actively look for them because they like to be able to say “I know a secret that you don’t know.” People that go to embarrassing lengths to promote a conspiracy at all costs.
There are some conspiracies that ignore witness statements, evidence and science to acheive a desired outcome, such as the Warren Report. I spent a decade studying the ballistics of high power rifles and I can assure you that the Grassy Knoll does not fall into the category that you describe above. Watch the Zapruder film.


You appear to be on a high horse George as you’re doing a fair bit of ‘disparaging yourself at the moment.
I am not in any way trying to be offensive to you and if you have perceived my comments as that then I offer my apologies. However, when it comes to bagging, heckling, stamping of feet and the occassional dummy spit about other's opinions then, as my mother used to tell us, if you want to dish it out, be prepared for it to come back.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would think that he was hearing Diemshitz and Jacobs running towards Grove St. The Constable would have been the second of the two constables seen by Smith when he arrived, the other being Lamb, remembering that the fixed point constable (Ayliffe) had already departed for the doctor. Once again, he wouldn't be using his whistle when not located at the crime scene.

So did Diemschitz and Jacobs return with this constable, or did they return with Spooner?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Herlock,

Have you considered that perhaps Lamb was "an officer that had been appointed to do that duty instead", since he had just passed the Harris clock which was on his beat, and Smith's beat, and was likely used (with corrections) as a part of the local time keeping structure?

Nice one, George. Lamb seems to have had a short beat going up and down a section of Commercial Road. So he seems a logical choice for that duty. So then, why did Lamb say...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.

Surely if it were his job to tell Ayliffe when he could knock-off, he would have a fairly precise knowledge of the time at that point. Perhaps he was not far off checking a clock, when the men came running up to him?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

Hi Herlock,

Below are: in black, my original comment; in bold, your reply; in blue, my reply to your reply.

You appear to be on a high horse George as you’re doing a fair bit of ‘disparaging yourself at the moment.
I am not in any way trying to be offensive to you and if you have perceived my comments as that then I offer my apologies. However, when it comes to bagging, heckling, stamping of feet and the occassional dummy spit about other's opinions then, as my mother used to tell us, if you want to dish it out, be prepared for it to come back.

Cheers, George

I wasn’t complaining George I was simply responding to your accusation. There’s a difference.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You keep using "the Grassy Knoll" as a form of disparagement of people's opinions. Were you alive when Kennedy was assassinated. I was, and was glued to the coverage as it happened, have studied it ever since, and I daresay that I know more about it than those who use the term as a pejorative.
I use the term to describe people who see conspiracies everywhere. Who actively look for them because they like to be able to say “I know a secret that you don’t know.” People that go to embarrassing lengths to promote a conspiracy at all costs.
There are some conspiracies that ignore witness statements, evidence and science to acheive a desired outcome, such as the Warren Report. I spent a decade studying the ballistics of high power rifles and I can assure you that the Grassy Knoll does not fall into the category that you describe above. Watch the Zapruder film

Im no longer particularly interested in the assassination George and I’ve certainly never claimed any expertise on the subject. I can’t see a conspiracy being in any way believable though but I realise that these days it’s probably a minority view.

All that I know is that I’ve never seen or read as much nonsense over the years than I have heard from conspiracy theorists. I’m not saying that all of them are the same of course but everything tainted with conspiracy appears to attract obsessive lunacy. It’s not the subjects that bothers me but the way of thinking. Errors can’t be errors. Coincidences can’t happen. Everyone in authority is assumed to be a liar. Black is white. In general a debate against a conspiracist isn’t winnable because anything can mean anything. You knock down a point and they grow another one in its place to keep the game going. They have endless endurance. The world needs about 99% less conspiracy theorists.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not about conspiracy, I'm talking about consistancy and not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when talking about dodgy time guesstimates.
Thats a false accusation. I have not done that. Ever.
"Therefore Eagle strongly points to Stride’s body being discovered at 1.00."
"Pretty reasonable timing gauges I’d say. So this takes his time of hearing the cries for a Constable to just the right time that Diemschutz and Kozebrodski passed."
These are your conclusions for the long dodgy guesstimates of Eagle and Brown.

George are there any times involved in these events which you think might be reasonably accurate? We’ve both agreed that a reasonable allowance must be made on timings so I can’t understand why you appear to give weight to the three least believable times in terms of other witnesses. Koz and Hoschberg at 12.45 and Spooners 12.35. For them to have been correct Diemschutz clock had to be either 15 or 30 minutes out. Surely that far less likely? If they were there at 12.45 how come the Constable didn’t get to Blackwell’s until 20-25 minutes later? I suggested 1.05 for Lamb being informed but maybe it was just before 1.00 and that Louis clock was out. If Lamb got to the yard at around 1.00 then this is more reasonable with the PC getting to Blackwell’s between 1.05 and 1.10. Don’t you think 20-25 minutes is just way too long.

So I’ll ask…

What sequence of events would you suggest?

What approximate times would you suggest?

Would you accuse any witness of deliberate dishonesty?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If we accept that any given time might be wrong to some extent how do we assess individual times? How do we assess Diemschutz 1.00 for example?

I discount a lie. I see no reason to even consider this. So could his time of 1.00 have been incorrect?

George suggested a mid-reading of the clock. Not impossible of course but I’d suggest that if this was the case it could only have been a matter of a minute or two. I can’t see how he could have mistaken 12.45 for 1.00. This is too much of a stretch for me.

Could the clock have been incorrect…yes of course. The clock was in a shop so we have to ask if it’s likely that the shopkeeper would have left it so long as to have been 15 minutes out? Not impossible, very little is, but surely unlikely.

So my assessment would have to be that the clock was likely to have been either correct or slightly out (say around 5 minutes ) rather than 15 minutes. For me, allowing for Diemschutz seeing the clock 12.55-1.00 is no issue. It has to be more likely that 12.45 or indeed 12.30 (Spooner)

Then when we see that this aligns with Eagle, Brown and Lamb (estimations yes) I remain firmly of the position that Hoschberg and Kozebrodski were mistaken. And Spooner arrived 5 minutes or so before Lamb (whatever time he arrived)

[GBinOz]

So did Diemschitz and Jacobs return with this constable, or did they return with Spooner?

They returned with Spooner. The Constable (Collins) arrived before them.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Nice one, George. Lamb seems to have had a short beat going up and down a section of Commercial Road. So he seems a logical choice for that duty. So then, why did Lamb say...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.

Surely if it were his job to tell Ayliffe when he could knock-off, he would have a fairly precise knowledge of the time at that point. Perhaps he was not far off checking a clock, when the men came running up to him?

Hi Andrew,

Bit of speculation required here, but IMO he had checked the Harris clock, walked to the fixed point and informed Ayliffe that it was a few minutes to 1:00, turned around and resumed his beat, and was between Christian-street and Batty-street when Eagle and Koz came running towards him just before 1:00.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

They returned with Spooner. The Constable (Collins) arrived before them.

Cheers, George

Collins arrived before Diemschitz and whoever, returned from Grove street? So Collins arrived prior to Lamb & Ayliffe?