If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Andrew, I'd really be interested in the alternative version of what happened around and during Stride's murder, if that's what you're working on, but just not before you've worked it all out for yourself. Until then, I'm going to stick to the 'traditional' version of events and I'm not going to enlarge upon each & every oddity I might find in the evidence.

Cheers,
Frank

Hello Frank. I'll see what I can come up with. For now, consider this from the Times, Oct 1:

Conflicting statements are made as to the way in which the body was found, but according to one account a lad first made the discovery and gave information to a man named Costa, who proceeded to the spot, where almost immediately afterwards a constable arrived. The body was then removed to No. 40, Berner-street, which is very near to the now notorious Hanbury-street.

The reference to the removal of the body obviously makes no sense, yet given Arbeter Fraint's take, it does make sense to suppose that the lad referred to in this snippet from the Times, was Isaac Kozebrodsky.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So what is your best guess as to when the incident involving Schwartz occurred?

What makes a guess better or worse than another? They're just guesses after all. But, given we have Eagle and Lave returning around 12:40ish, and there's no indication of a struggle going on (that would have been noticed), nor is there evidence of a recently roughed up Stride fixing herself up (indicating that B.S. left after throwing her to the ground, and she was still alive), nor did they see her body in the ally (indicating B.S. hadn't killed her after Schwartz left the area), that would suggest that Schwartz's events occur after their arrival. Since she's found dead at 1:00, it had to have happened before that. So, sometime after 12:40 and before 1:00 seems to be the time window we're looking at. There may be other testimony that narrows that further of course, but given what we've been focusing on, we can at least get that far.

An interestingly wide window. Of course, the incident involving Schwartz is usually presumed to have been at approximately 12:45, owing to Swanson's report...

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Yet this raises the question as to how one of the following could have been true:

* Stride was killed by BS Man immediately after Schwartz fled the scene. She lies unnoticed for ~15 minutes, until the arrival of Diemschitz.
* BS Man parts the scene, and Stride picks herself up off the footway. She remains at the gateway for nearly 15 minutes, unseen, until being killed by a (presumably other) man, at close to 1am.
* Both BS Man and Stride depart the scene just after Schwartz flees, and then Stride returns just prior to 1am.

The first option struggles for the reason you state, and against the testimony of Spooner, who stated that the victim was still bleeding on his arrival. The later two options have to make sense of accounts such as the following from the Daily News, Oct 1:

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

It seems to me that things would make more sense if the Schwartz incident was placed at closer to 1am, than 12:45. After all, Schwartz' reference to 12:45 was probably just a guess, like this one...

Abraham Herschburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

Not only was Schwartz probably guessing about the time, but who knows how much cross-contamination there was, in the various accounts? ELO, Oct 6:

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street.

[Michael W Richards]

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street.

Im glad you posted this snippet because it punctuates what Ive been saying all along.....no-one who could, saw or heard anything happen in Berner Street between 12:35 and 1am. Not the witnesses above, not the young couple, no-one. Yet Israel Schwartz has 4 people including the soon to be victim on that street during that time in an altercation with some yelling. Smack dab at the same time other witnesses say they saw her on the ground, just inside the gates, with a clear view of the street in front of the club. And they didnt see Israel or the 2 other men he claims were there either.

If you are not there to hear a tree fall in the middle of the forest the only way you can know it did is by referencing its state before the set time and then again after the event has taken place. If it was standing before and now its not, you have your answer. There was no witness nor physical trace that indicated what Isreal said happened actually happened, only a deserted street before and a deserted street after. Which also suggests that the killer did not come from the street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Im glad you posted this snippet because it punctuates what Ive been saying all along.....no-one who could, saw or heard anything happen in Berner Street between 12:35 and 1am. Not the witnesses above, not the young couple, no-one. Yet Israel Schwartz has 4 people including the soon to be victim on that street during that time in an altercation with some yelling. Smack dab at the same time other witnesses say they saw her on the ground, just inside the gates, with a clear view of the street in front of the club. And they didnt see Israel or the 2 other men he claims were there either.

If you are not there to hear a tree fall in the middle of the forest the only way you can know it did is by referencing its state before the set time and then again after the event has taken place. If it was standing before and now its not, you have your answer. There was no witness nor physical trace that indicated what Isreal said happened actually happened, only a deserted street before and a deserted street after. Which also suggests that the killer did not come from the street.

You really do apply some strange logic. The proper use of the tree analogy of course would be to say that just because the incident was witnessed by Schwartz alone it doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. We don’t need to invent any answers for this one. The actual time between BS man meeting Stride and Schwartz leaving would have taken a matter of a few seconds as the timid Schwartz hardly pulled up a chair. He watched this incident on the move so it’s reasonable to suggest that the incident probably took around 30 seconds. We can’t say exactly of course but there is no reason for suspecting that it took significant longer. So we’re talking about a short incident. Therefore we only need a window of time of more than 30 seconds….let’s say a minute.

As has been mentioned if we don’t hold everyone to exact times we shouldn’t hold Schwartz to an exact time as we don’t know how he came to it (geographically speaking isn’t it possible that he passed the clock that Diemschutz saw though?) So the question that we should ask is…..is it categorically impossible that the Schwartz incident could have occurred unseen? I can’t see how anyone could claim this given what we know and what we should accept about timing differences.

Its only if you approach this from the point of……we know that there was a cover up and so…. We have to state the unknown as fact to make the case. It’s entirely possible that the Schwartz incident went unseen. Add this to the rest of the evidence (when assessed sans conspiracy goggles) and considering the utter lack of remotely believable motive for a cover up and we arrive at only one conclusion. There was transparently no cover up. Stride was killed and her killer (whoever he was) got away either entirely unseen or he was sen walking away and no one bothered coming forward. It likely happened between 12.45 and 1.00 and the body was discovered by Louis Diemschutz at 1.00.

There should be nothing further to debate on this subject as it’s way past time that the above was conceded. It won’t be of course because a cover up is required to bolster another theory. An unbiased assessment leaves us without any doubt that no cover up occurred.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Im glad you posted this snippet because it punctuates what Ive been saying all along.....no-one who could, saw or heard anything happen in Berner Street between 12:35 and 1am. Not the witnesses above, not the young couple, no-one.

If we push the Schwartz incident to 12:55 or later, then we effectively have just a single incident - the murder. This eliminates the problems of having two incidents about 15 minutes apart. We could also suppose Fanny had locked up just before, thus missing the incident. Yet there are still problems, such as...

Mortimer: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Although, would it be fair to ask...? If the couple did not hear a sound, how did they (or was it Fanny?) know when the woman must have been murdered?

Yet Israel Schwartz has 4 people including the soon to be victim on that street during that time in an altercation with some yelling.

I reckon I know the names of all 4.

Smack dab at the same time other witnesses say they saw her on the ground, just inside the gates, with a clear view of the street in front of the club. And they didnt see Israel or the 2 other men he claims were there either.

If you are not there to hear a tree fall in the middle of the forest the only way you can know it did is by referencing its state before the set time and then again after the event has taken place. If it was standing before and now its not, you have your answer. There was no witness nor physical trace that indicated what Isreal said happened actually happened, only a deserted street before and a deserted street after. Which also suggests that the killer did not come from the street.

In reference to the FM quote above, what was before and after the time of the murder?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Yet Israel Schwartz has 4 people including the soon to be victim on that street during that time in an altercation with some yelling

Stride + BS Man + Pipeman = 3

[Herlock Sholmes]

Morris Eagle returned at 12.35

Isaac Kozebrodski (according to him) was in the yard with Diemschutz at 12.40 and then went for a Constable

Lave was (according to him) on the yard and in the street at 12.40

Edward Spooner (according to one part of his statement) got the the yard at 12.35.

Louis Diemschutz (in accordance with the above) must have returned on his cart around 12.30

PC Smith passed between 12.30 and 12.35.

…….


What do all of the above have in common?

Answer: The infallible Fanny Mortimer saw none of them.

……

And yet it’s still repeated that she was on her doorstep for most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00.

Really?

Or is there an alternative explanation?

Its time that Fanny was put out to grass.

[JeffHamm]

An interestingly wide window. Of course, the incident involving Schwartz is usually presumed to have been at approximately 12:45, owing to Swanson's report...

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Yet this raises the question as to how one of the following could have been true:

* Stride was killed by BS Man immediately after Schwartz fled the scene. She lies unnoticed for ~15 minutes, until the arrival of Diemschitz.
* BS Man parts the scene, and Stride picks herself up off the footway. She remains at the gateway for nearly 15 minutes, unseen, until being killed by a (presumably other) man, at close to 1am.
* Both BS Man and Stride depart the scene just after Schwartz flees, and then Stride returns just prior to 1am.

The first option struggles for the reason you state, and against the testimony of Spooner, who stated that the victim was still bleeding on his arrival. The later two options have to make sense of accounts such as the following from the Daily News, Oct 1:

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

It seems to me that things would make more sense if the Schwartz incident was placed at closer to 1am, than 12:45. After all, Schwartz' reference to 12:45 was probably just a guess, like this one...

Abraham Herschburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

Not only was Schwartz probably guessing about the time, but who knows how much cross-contamination there was, in the various accounts? ELO, Oct 6:

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street.

Well, if the Schwartz incident happened at 12:45, and the sister isn't at the door until 12:50, I don't see a conflict there, in fact, she appears to rule out some of the time window I had previously mentioned, narrowing things down to between 12:40 and 12:50. Interestingly, the only murder where we can narrow things down to a comparable level of specificity would be Eddowes, where we have 14 minutes due to PC Watkins beat time, but it gets even more specific if one goes with the Church Passage Couple as Eddowes and JtR (given that last point is debatable, the 14 minutes from Watkins would be the uncontestable window I think, barring some of the more creative stories of course).

And yes, we don't know what Schwartz's 12:45 is based on, whether a guess or a clock reading. We do know, though, that Herschburg is clearly guessing, as his "I should think" is a signal to "I don't know, but something like that seems right to me", which is by definition an estimate/guess. Time estimates can often be widely off, though some are particularly good at it too. Without knowing the individual, there's nothing to inform us about these individual people's accuracy. But, police arriving at 12:45 would mean it took 30 minutes before the doctor shows up, and that seems improbably long given he was sent for pretty close to when the police arrive at the scene.

The snippet tells us the crime was committed without attracting any attention, so no loud struggle. It also supports the notion that the crime was probably committed swiftly, but that can be inferred from the fact there's only a single wound inflicted as well. It would be impossible, I think, for it to have occurred prior to 12:30, and nobody argues for it being after 1:00. So, it must have happened during the very time window described in that snippet. But we already know that. Those are the bits of information that get used to try and narrow things down, but it's a puzzle, and the pieces are worn, torn, and swollen, so they don't always fit together well as they are. What we're left trying to do is figure out how they went together before all the damage was done to them. Some, like Mrs. Mortimer, we know were going in and out over that period of time. Given the crime had to be silent and swift, and given she didn't see anything, that would suggest she was inside when things happened. If BS killed Stride, the incident Schwartz described could very well fit those requirements. That's one arrangement that works, which of course also comes with it's own set of assumptions that has to be made to make the pieces fit. Because we lack sureity in the evidence, there can be a number of pictures/stories told, each burdened with their own set of assumptions. As such, the evaluations of the various proposed ideas comes down to trying to evaluate the assumptions themselves. The fewer that are required, and the less implausible they are, the better the quality of the explanation. And that's probably the best we can do, unless, or hopefully until, some new information comes to light.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, if the Schwartz incident happened at 12:45, and the sister isn't at the door until 12:50, I don't see a conflict there, in fact, she appears to rule out some of the time window I had previously mentioned, narrowing things down to between 12:40 and 12:50.

So what happens to the time window when we also consider this...?

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time.

Interestingly, the only murder where we can narrow things down to a comparable level of specificity would be Eddowes, where we have 14 minutes due to PC Watkins beat time, but it gets even more specific if one goes with the Church Passage Couple as Eddowes and JtR (given that last point is debatable, the 14 minutes from Watkins would be the uncontestable window I think, barring some of the more creative stories of course).

I'm not so sure. Mrs Diemschitz said:

Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. ... I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall.

So there was a pool of blood at 1am. That means the deed had been done a a few minutes or more previously. That surely means no murderer is hiding behind the gates or in the yard - he has already left. Yet how long ago? Well not so long that she had stopped bleeding when Spooner arrived ...

Spooner: I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat.

That would seem to narrow things right down.

And yes, we don't know what Schwartz's 12:45 is based on, whether a guess or a clock reading. We do know, though, that Herschburg is clearly guessing, as his "I should think" is a signal to "I don't know, but something like that seems right to me", which is by definition an estimate/guess. Time estimates can often be widely off, though some are particularly good at it too. Without knowing the individual, there's nothing to inform us about these individual people's accuracy. But, police arriving at 12:45 would mean it took 30 minutes before the doctor shows up, and that seems improbably long given he was sent for pretty close to when the police arrive at the scene.

Nothing that Herschburg said, indicates that there were policemen in the yard when he arrived there.

The snippet tells us the crime was committed without attracting any attention, so no loud struggle. It also supports the notion that the crime was probably committed swiftly, but that can be inferred from the fact there's only a single wound inflicted as well. It would be impossible, I think, for it to have occurred prior to 12:30, and nobody argues for it being after 1:00. So, it must have happened during the very time window described in that snippet. But we already know that. Those are the bits of information that get used to try and narrow things down, but it's a puzzle, and the pieces are worn, torn, and swollen, so they don't always fit together well as they are. What we're left trying to do is figure out how they went together before all the damage was done to them. Some, like Mrs. Mortimer, we know were going in and out over that period of time. Given the crime had to be silent and swift, and given she didn't see anything, that would suggest she was inside when things happened.

Didn't see anything?

FM: There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

Why did Fanny not say "I did not observe anyone enter or leave the gates"?

If BS killed Stride, the incident Schwartz described could very well fit those requirements. That's one arrangement that works, which of course also comes with it's own set of assumptions that has to be made to make the pieces fit. Because we lack sureity in the evidence, there can be a number of pictures/stories told, each burdened with their own set of assumptions. As such, the evaluations of the various proposed ideas comes down to trying to evaluate the assumptions themselves. The fewer that are required, and the less implausible they are, the better the quality of the explanation. And that's probably the best we can do, unless, or hopefully until, some new information comes to light.

If BS killing Stride is an arrangement that works, then it must somehow deal with issues you have already mentioned...

What makes a guess better or worse than another? They're just guesses after all. But, given we have Eagle and Lave returning around 12:40ish, and there's no indication of a struggle going on (that would have been noticed), nor is there evidence of a recently roughed up Stride fixing herself up (indicating that B.S. left after throwing her to the ground, and she was still alive), nor did they see her body in the ally (indicating B.S. hadn't killed her after Schwartz left the area), that would suggest that Schwartz's events occur after their arrival. Since she's found dead at 1:00, it had to have happened before that. So, sometime after 12:40 and before 1:00 seems to be the time window we're looking at. There may be other testimony that narrows that further of course, but given what we've been focusing on, we can at least get that far.

Your reasoning here, supports the notion that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was much later than normally supposed. That, by the way, would make Schwartz a vital witness. He should have been at the inquest. So where was he?

[JeffHamm]

So what happens to the time window when we also consider this...?

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time.

Well, as far as I know, there wasn't a police man pass down Berner's Street at that time, so while she may have heard heavy footsteps, it appears her interpretation of them as being a policeman is in error. I'm basing that on the idea that had the PC whose beat took them down Berner Street patrolled that stretch at about 12:45 that would have come up at the inquest, as per PC Neil in the Nichols case, and PC Watkins and Harvey in Eddowes'. So, that leaves the interesting possibility that she heard Stride's killer leaving the scene, which would also explain why she didn't see anything because she doesn't come out until after the person has left, by her own testimony. I'm not going to push that too hard, of course, as it's built upon having to make some assumptions that I cannot support any further than I have just done, but that's at least one idea that could account for it.

It also places the murder within the time window we're discussing, and so the Schwartz incident would have been not long before the footsteps. Given the inexactness of time estimates, everything more or less fits with a murder somewhere in the vicinity of 12:45 type thing. I suppose +- 5 minutes would be a reasonable range to consider if I had to guess.

I'm not so sure. Mrs Diemschitz said:

Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. ... I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall.

Sure, but this is now all after the murder has taken place. It's pretty clear her killer didn't stick around after the single cut, and if the above footsteps were the killer (not proven of course), then he was long gone by this time.

So there was a pool of blood at 1am. That means the deed had been done a a few minutes or more previously. That surely means no murderer is hiding behind the gates or in the yard - he has already left. Yet how long ago? Well not so long that she had stopped bleeding when Spooner arrived ...

Spooner: I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat.

That would seem to narrow things right down.

Stride's throat was cut on the left side, and the wound to the right side was much less than in the other cases, only making a small hole in the major vessels on that side. It would have taken her much longer to die (though fortunately she would have lapsed into unconsciousness fairly quickly) and bleed out. I don't think any of this negates the previous suggestions, but I see what you're getting at. The problem, of course, is that if she was killed just before Spooner arrives, why didn't Mrs. Mortimer see the killer leave? But if she heard him, problem solved.

Nothing that Herschburg said, indicates that there were policemen in the yard when he arrived there.

Ah, I wasn't clear. Herschburg describes first seeing the body when the club was alerted by Deimshutz. The police arrive not too long after that, but there is some delay of course as they had to run off to find them. Then the police arrived, and send for the doctor. Still, if Herschburg's 12:45 estimate of the time is correct, that means things that probably, in total, took 10-15 minutes, are now requiring to take 30 (the point when the doctor finally gets there). I didn't mean the police were there when Herchburg first saw the body. I wasn't clear, sorry.

Didn't see anything?

FM: There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

Why did Fanny not say "I did not observe anyone enter or leave the gates"?

I don't know, but I think it's fair to say if she saw someone leaving she would have mentioned it. I think she was just indicating, in a round about way, that since nobody entered the murder must have already happened (or was happening) while she was on the step.

If BS killing Stride is an arrangement that works, then it must somehow deal with issues you have already mentioned...



Your reasoning here, supports the notion that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was much later than normally supposed. That, by the way, would make Schwartz a vital witness. He should have been at the inquest. So where was he?

Except, I think later becomes a problem as Mrs. Mortimer is on her step.

As for where was Schwartz? We just don't know. It is maddening that there is no indication at all with regards to why he didn't attend the inquest. There's even a mention of him being there (sort of) in the police memo's (something like "the decision on the Schwartz information at the inquest" or some phrase like that), implying he was there, is clearly an error, but it does suggest the police were thinking of him as testifying at the inquest. Why he didn't, though, is never mentioned, or even hinted at, in any of the surviving records.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, as far as I know, there wasn't a police man pass down Berner's Street at that time, so while she may have heard heavy footsteps, it appears her interpretation of them as being a policeman is in error.

So at what time did Smith pass? What approximate time, that is?

How could Fanny not have been well aware of the sound of a passing policeman? I dare say it would have been a very distinct sound.

Echo, Oct 2: In the small hours of this morning a Press Association reporter plodded through street after street; and still street after street, without coming across a living soul of any kind beyond the solitary policeman on his monotonous round. The heavy regular tramp of the custodian of the peace alone disturbed the stillness of the night: It was in all truth a weary round this perambulation of Whitechapel. Its main thoroughfares, its back slums, and its environs, and the heavy showers which fell at intermittent periods did not tend to enhance the pleasures of the tour.

Echo, Oct 4: Sir, - Will you allow me to support your suggestion of the advisability of the authorities to supply policemen on night duty with noiseless boots? I have frequently seen people meet after dark under suspicious-looking circumstances, disperse immediately on hearing the heavy measured tramp of an advancing policeman - whereas, if had had been in time to have seen what their little business really was. I firmly believe the noiseless booted policeman would greatly tend to diminish street lawlessness. - Yours faithfully,
HENRY BAX 16, Lincoln's-inn-fields, W.C.

I'm basing that on the idea that had the PC whose beat took them down Berner Street patrolled that stretch at about 12:45 that would have come up at the inquest, as per PC Neil in the Nichols case, and PC Watkins and Harvey in Eddowes'.

It did come up. Smith gave an estimate of his prior time, when in Berner street.

So, that leaves the interesting possibility that she heard Stride's killer leaving the scene, which would also explain why she didn't see anything because she doesn't come out until after the person has left, by her own testimony.

So she heard the killer walking off, but not the 3 not very loud screams, nor the call of 'Lipski!'?

I'm not going to push that too hard, of course, as it's built upon having to make some assumptions that I cannot support any further than I have just done, but that's at least one idea that could account for it.

Somehow, a slot needs to be found in which the Schwartz incident can be placed, with reasonable compatibility with the evidence. That seems to be the situation.

It also places the murder within the time window we're discussing, and so the Schwartz incident would have been not long before the footsteps. Given the inexactness of time estimates, everything more or less fits with a murder somewhere in the vicinity of 12:45 type thing. I suppose +- 5 minutes would be a reasonable range to consider if I had to guess.

So how are we to explain things like the unruffled nature of the victim's clothing, and the cachous in hand?

Sure, but this is now all after the murder has taken place. It's pretty clear her killer didn't stick around after the single cut, and if the above footsteps were the killer (not proven of course), then he was long gone by this time.

There were some posts recently that seriously considered the notion of the killer hiding behind the gates when Diemschitz arrived. Considering the extent of the blood-flow right after the discovery, the gate hiding theory seems totally implausible to me.

Stride's throat was cut on the left side, and the wound to the right side was much less than in the other cases, only making a small hole in the major vessels on that side. It would have taken her much longer to die (though fortunately she would have lapsed into unconsciousness fairly quickly) and bleed out. I don't think any of this negates the previous suggestions, but I see what you're getting at. The problem, of course, is that if she was killed just before Spooner arrives, why didn't Mrs. Mortimer see the killer leave? But if she heard him, problem solved.

As I said, I think the murder was a few minutes or more before the discovery, meaning it were several minutes prior to Spooner's arrival. As for Mrs Mortimer, did she not see him leave, or would it more correct to say she just missed seeing him leave...?

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.
...
He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Ah, I wasn't clear. Herschburg describes first seeing the body when the club was alerted by Deimshutz. The police arrive not too long after that, but there is some delay of course as they had to run off to find them. Then the police arrived, and send for the doctor. Still, if Herschburg's 12:45 estimate of the time is correct, that means things that probably, in total, took 10-15 minutes, are now requiring to take 30 (the point when the doctor finally gets there). I didn't mean the police were there when Herchburg first saw the body. I wasn't clear, sorry.

I wasn't clear either, sorry. My point is; regardless of Herschburg's time estimate, he gives no indication that there are police on the scene when he arrives at the yard, and yet, he stated he was alerted to the incident (as was Mr Harris), by the sound of a policeman's whistle.

I don't know, but I think it's fair to say if she saw someone leaving she would have mentioned it. I think she was just indicating, in a round about way, that since nobody entered the murder must have already happened (or was happening) while she was on the step.

FM: A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

Except, I think later becomes a problem as Mrs. Mortimer is on her step.

Until, perhaps, 12:55. So whatever it was that Schwartz was describing, it occurs after that point.

As for where was Schwartz? We just don't know. It is maddening that there is no indication at all with regards to why he didn't attend the inquest. There's even a mention of him being there (sort of) in the police memo's (something like "the decision on the Schwartz information at the inquest" or some phrase like that), implying he was there, is clearly an error, but it does suggest the police were thinking of him as testifying at the inquest. Why he didn't, though, is never mentioned, or even hinted at, in any of the surviving records.

There was awareness of Schwartz' account, at the inquest, and I believe, knowledge of when it really occurred.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting.

Morris Eagle returned at 12.35

From Eagle at the Inquest:I returned about twenty minutes to one.

Isaac Kozebrodski (according to him) was in the yard with Diemschutz at 12.40 and then went for a Constable

From Issacs interview that night:About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard.

Lave was (according to him) on the yard and in the street at 12.40

What Lave said is: ....had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am . He added;" So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions"

Edward Spooner (according to one part of his statement) got the the yard at 12.35.

Spooner actually said: "On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock.....

Louis Diemschutz (in accordance with the above) must have returned on his cart around 12.30

But he says: " returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning"

PC Smith passed between 12.30 and 12.35.

You got that one right.


What do all of the above have in common?

Answer: The infallible Fanny Mortimer saw none of them.

Because 4 of the above witnesses gave a time that they were in that passageway, Fanny couldnt see them. But Israel says he was on the street and saw Liz and BSM and Pipeman and Louis Diemshitz is the only witness quoted saying he arrived at 1.

And yet it’s still repeated that she was on her doorstep for most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00.

Cause she was, she was only at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 and didnt see or hear Mr D arriving at 1 either, did she?

Or is there an alternative explanation?

The alternative explanation is that Fanny didnt see what didnt happen and missed Eagle and Louis because she was inside, and she didnt see people in the passageway at 12:40-12:45 because they were not visible. Exactly what time Louis did arrive cannot be determined, but I believe the evidence says he arrived by 12:45ish..slightly earlier, and thats likely when Fanny isnt at her door, maybe that 5-10 minutes when Louis and Morris arrive with Lave already standing there. Check what the locals said usually took place in that passageway after Saturday night meetings and then imagine on that night this takes place 1 hour or so after the meeting broke up. Were there likely people in that passage...smoking, talking politics, women. Some "Low men" also, as the neighbor noted.

Which raises a point...if thats accurate then Lave is there when the murder takes place, maybe the only man close by to that spot.

[MrBarnett]

And why no mention of Israel Goldstein?

[JeffHamm]

So at what time did Smith pass? What approximate time, that is?

How could Fanny not have been well aware of the sound of a passing policeman? I dare say it would have been a very distinct sound.


Echo, Oct 2: In the small hours of this morning a Press Association reporter plodded through street after street; and still street after street, without coming across a living soul of any kind beyond the solitary policeman on his monotonous round. The heavy regular tramp of the custodian of the peace alone disturbed the stillness of the night: It was in all truth a weary round this perambulation of Whitechapel. Its main thoroughfares, its back slums, and its environs, and the heavy showers which fell at intermittent periods did not tend to enhance the pleasures of the tour.

Echo, Oct 4: Sir, - Will you allow me to support your suggestion of the advisability of the authorities to supply policemen on night duty with noiseless boots? I have frequently seen people meet after dark under suspicious-looking circumstances, disperse immediately on hearing the heavy measured tramp of an advancing policeman - whereas, if had had been in time to have seen what their little business really was. I firmly believe the noiseless booted policeman would greatly tend to diminish street lawlessness. - Yours faithfully,
HENRY BAX 16, Lincoln's-inn-fields, W.C.

I don't dispute that the police, given their patrol speed is slower than the average walking pace, would have a distinctive sound. However, that being said, what she heard was footsteps, she did not see that it was a policeman. As such, it may be her interpretation that they sounded like a policeman, but that doesn't mean it was. Just like it was Schwartz's interpretation that Lipski was shouted at Pipeman, but the odds are that his interpretation was incorrect.

As I say, I'm not presenting this as if I know for sure she was wrong, only pointing out that the footsteps being made a policeman at 12:45 are not a sure thing.

It did come up. Smith gave an estimate of his prior time, when in Berner street.

Ah, yes, you are correct. I had forgotten that and didn't have my books open. Yes, he indicates he last patrolled Berner Street at about 12:30 or 12:35. So, that's close enough to when FM says she heard the footsteps, and her times are "fast" by 10 to 15 minutes. She didn't hear them at 12:45, but 12:30 or 12:35. Meaning she was probably back inside at 12:45, and she underestimated the time that passed after that. Pretty standard errors that are found in witness testimonies. Until the event, nothing is particularly memorable, so the exact time that passes, etc, all has to be recreated, and that's generally not accurate. PC Smith, being on his beat, has a need to keep track of the time, so preference is given to his.

So, if he passes between 12:30 and 12:35, and FM comes out for 10 minutes, she's back inside around 12:40 - 12:45. That still allows for Schwartz, B.S. to enter the scene after she's gone back inside, from 12:40 onwards (allowing for her early return inside) and becoming less contestable by 12:45. Might push the events more towards 12:50, let's say, but I don't have any particular time preference myself.

So she heard the killer walking off, but not the 3 not very loud screams, nor the call of 'Lipski!'?

Well, given PC Smith's patrol at 12:30-5, we've got two alternatives. That her interpretation that the footsteps were of a policeman was correct, and she heard PC Smith, which means her stated time is wrong. Or, if her time was correct, then her interpretation that the footsteps were of a policeman was wrong, because PC Smith didn't patrol at her stated time, he had done that much earlier.

With the first of those lines of possibilities, then the Schwartz event has yet to happen, so there were no "not very loud screams" and the call of Lipski wasn't heard either because it hadn't yet been yelled.

Even in the 2nd line of possibilities, where she hears the footsteps and we are allowing them to be Stride's killer leaving the scene, and she's mistaken them for a policeman, she's still inside when those happen. We know she goes outside shortly thereafter, and since she hears the footsteps, she would probably be in the front room. All it would take is for her to be in a different room from when she heard the footsteps, where sounds from the street are less audible, a few minutes before that when the Schwartz event takes place. It's not that difficult a problem to come up with various explanations, but in the end, why she didn't hear them can only be speculated on, the fact remains, she apparently didn't for whatever reason. But not hearing them doesn't mean they didn't happen. It just means she didn't hear them.

Somehow, a slot needs to be found in which the Schwartz incident can be placed, with reasonable compatibility with the evidence. That seems to be the situation.

Well, I don't see a problem myself, but obviously we differ on that.

So how are we to explain things like the unruffled nature of the victim's clothing, and the cachous in hand?

The cachous are in her hand no matter who kills her. We don't know the events that transpire after Schwartz leaves the area. We can't even be sure B.S. goes on to kill her of course. But whoever kills her, cuts her throat while she's on the ground, and she's holding the cachous. And I think there are different indications about the state of her clothes. I don't think they were looking fresh pressed or anything, only that they weren't obviously pulled up over the midline type thing (she didn't look like she had been "outraged" I believe the phrase was).

There were some posts recently that seriously considered the notion of the killer hiding behind the gates when Diemschitz arrived. Considering the extent of the blood-flow right after the discovery, the gate hiding theory seems totally implausible to me.

Yes, that is one idea that's been floating around since 1888 I think. I'm not inclined to believe that, though, as I don't think the evidence really pushes the murder so close to Diemshutz's arrival. I think she was killed well before he gets there, and her killer had left the area without a need to hide to avoid Deimshutz. But that's just my opinion. You'll have to ask someone who is more inclined to the hid/fled idea.

As I said, I think the murder was a few minutes or more before the discovery, meaning it were several minutes prior to Spooner's arrival. As for Mrs Mortimer, did she not see him leave, or would it more correct to say she just missed seeing him leave...?

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.
...
He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

That fellow was found by the police and cleared of involvement, so if you're suggesting she just missed seeing him leave the crime scene, that appears to have been considered and ruled out. To suggest otherwise you have to speculate the police made an error in considering him not involved, which of course can happen, but it remains speculative (as is much of what I'm tossing around here too of course) so don't get too married to the idea.

I wasn't clear either, sorry. My point is; regardless of Herschburg's time estimate, he gives no indication that there are police on the scene when he arrives at the yard, and yet, he stated he was alerted to the incident (as was Mr Harris), by the sound of a policeman's whistle.

That doesn't make sense. If the police aren't there, why are they blowing whistles? If the police are blowing whistles, then they are there. His lack of mentioning them would just mean he didn't include that detail in his telling of things. Perhaps his statement that it was the police whistle that alerted him he considered enough to make it obvious there were police there?

FM: A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

Fanny is welcome to her opinion, but she's not a medical expert, she herself didn't touch the body, and even if she did, you can't estimate ToD by touching and feeling, though doctors at the time were quite confident they could. As such, I don't think we would be wise to put much faith in her estimate of the ToD.

Until, perhaps, 12:55. So whatever it was that Schwartz was describing, it occurs after that point.

Not if she hears PC Smith pass at 12:30-12:35, her time estimate for that would be 10 minutes out, moving the Schwartz incident back towards 12:45 ish.

There was awareness of Schwartz' account, at the inquest, and I believe, knowledge of when it really occurred.

Well, I think Schwartz stated it was around 12:45 didn't he? He was questioned by the police for awhile, so they would have information as to what time Schwartz thought it was when the events occurred. Schwartz's estimate of 12:45 doesn't conflict badly with the information we have, particularly if FM did hear PC Smith. That tells us her times are out by 10 minutes, and that would again place Schwartz at 12:45.

If her times are correct, then the steps are not that of a policeman, and so probably Stride's killer, which once again allows for Schwartz's incident to occur around 12:45, or there abouts. But I don't have a problem with it being later, could be 12:50, or even 12:55. Once we get close to Diemshutz's arrival, though, I think things are over and her killer long gone. So, if that happens as 1, probably no later than 12:56 or 57 type thing? That gives her killer 3 - 4 minutes to leave the area and not be seen.

I don't see the problem myself, as somewhere between 12:45 and 12:57 could be argued for. If you think it was close to the time of discovery, then 12:57 would probably be your preference for the murder, so I suppose that would place the Schwartz event around 12:55, and FM has gone inside by then as she heard PC Smith at 12:30-35, was out for 10 minutes, so she had gone back in around 12:45, and Bob's your Uncle.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n772113[/QUOTE]


Morris Eagle returned at 12.35

From Eagle at the Inquest:I returned about twenty minutes to one.

“About a quarter to 12 he left the club for the purpose of taking his young lady home. They left by the front door. He returned to the club about 25 minutes to 1.”

Isaac Kozebrodski (according to him) was in the yard with Diemschutz at 12.40 and then went for a Constable

From Issacs interview that night:About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard.

Same person.

Lave was (according to him) on the yard and in the street at 12.40

What Lave said is: ....had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am . He added;" So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions"

You use this? Lave couldn’t have been in the street at 1.10 seeing nothing.

Edward Spooner (according to one part of his statement) got the the yard at 12.35.

Spooner actually said: "On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock.....

He was wrong of course. He was there 5 minutes before Lamb arrived, eliminating the earlier time completely.

Louis Diemschutz (in accordance with the above) must have returned on his cart around 12.30

But he says: " returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning"

And he did according to the clock that he saw.

PC Smith passed between 12.30 and 12.35.

You got that one right.

I got them all right.

What do all of the above have in common?

Answer: The infallible Fanny Mortimer saw none of them.

Because 4 of the above witnesses gave a time that they were in that passageway, Fanny couldnt see them. But Israel says he was on the street and saw Liz and BSM and Pipeman and Louis Diemshitz is the only witness quoted saying he arrived at 1.

But you keep stating that Fanny was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 when this clearly wasn’t the case. Stride alone shows FM to have been unreliable. She arrived at the gates between 12.30 and 12.45 and yet Mortimer didn’t see her.

And yet it’s still repeated that she was on her doorstep for most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00.

Cause she was, she was only at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 and didnt see or hear Mr D arriving at 1 either, did she?

Or is there an alternative explanation?

The alternative explanation is that Fanny didnt see what didnt happen and missed Eagle and Louis because she was inside, and she didnt see people in the passageway at 12:40-12:45 because they were not visible. Exactly what time Louis did arrive cannot be determined, but I believe the evidence says he arrived by 12:45ish..slightly earlier, and thats likely when Fanny isnt at her door, maybe that 5-10 minutes when Louis and Morris arrive with Lave already standing there. Check what the locals said usually took place in that passageway after Saturday night meetings and then imagine on that night this takes place 1 hour or so after the meeting broke up. Were there likely people in that passage...smoking, talking politics, women. Some "Low men" also, as the neighbor noted.

Why, if you suddenly accept that Mortimer spent time inside and could have missed things, have you continuously been using her to ‘disprove’ Schwartz?

Which raises a point...if thats accurate then Lave is there when the murder takes place, maybe the only man close by to that spot.

If someone didn’t see Schwartz it’s either because they were in some way out of sight or they weren’t there in the first place. Schwartz had zero reason to lie. Therefore he didn’t.