If Schwartz Lied ...

[Fiver]

Have you thought through the implications of this? 12:42 would almost certainly make parcel man the murderer, or at least an accomplice to the murder.

Yes. If Israel Schwartz was telling the truth, then "parcel man" probably killed Elizabeth Stride. And based on behavior, "parcel man" probably was not the Ripper. That means Schwartz is the witness who best supports Michael's theory. Which leaves me baffled as to why Michael assumes the witness that best supports his theory was lying.

So how does this man get out of the yard, unseen by Fanny? Does he leave before 12:44? Did he kill her? Does Liz then lie there leaking blood for 20 minutes, unnoticed by anyone? Does no one use the lavs in that period, or go outside for fresh air, or leave to go home?

Do you realize that these problems exist regardless of who killed Elizabeth Stride? Do you realize that these problems exist regardless of whether you believe Schwartz, Mortimer, or both? Do you realize that if we take Mortimer's statement at face value, Lewis Diemschutz could not have arrived at 12:45?

There were three ways out of Dutfield's Yard - into the street, into the club, and into the houses that opened into the yard. Michael repeatedly ignores the last option - the police of the time did not.

"A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer." -Detective-Inspector Reid

There are several ways for Stride's killer to escape unnoticed by Fanny Mortimer.

If we accept Michael's theory that Lewis Deimshutz arrived at 12:45, then Mortimer failed to see or hear Deimschutz, his cart, and the pony. Anyone this unobservant would have missed seeing Stride's killer leave unless he was dancing down the streets waving a bloody knife and yelling that he was the Ripper.

Back in the realm of reality, there are several options.

The killer was Leon Goldstein, who Mortimer thought might have left Dutfield's Yard just before she went back inside.
The killer left into Berner Street before Mortimer began observing.
The killer left into Berner Street between Mortimer going back inside and Deimschutz' arrival.
The killer left into Berner Street between Deimschutz entering the club and the return of club members into the Yard. This requires not being detected by Deimschutz during this time.
The killer hid behind the doors into the Yard when Deimshutz arrived, then pretended to be one of the first people to come into the Yard after the alarm was raised. While this is not impossible, it is clearly a worse plan than just ducking into Berner Street when Deimschutz goes inside. It requires not being detected by a group, not just by a single man. It also requires the police and doctors failing in their search of you.

The bigger consideration for any theory is how did Elizabeth Stride get into Dutfield's Yard. The only reasonable possibilities are Stride entered the Yard before Fanny Mortimer came to her doorway or between Mortimer going back inside and Deimschutz' arrival.

[Fiver]

Compared to who? Name one other poster who has used the following quote, when assessing Fanny Mortimer.

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

That would be me. The one who first suggested that maybe we should take a closer look at Leon Goldstein.

[Fiver]

Ripper Confidential does the full quote like this:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

Fanny Mortimer doesn't appear to have seen this chase at 12:45, either.

Could this chase be the one described by Israel Schwartz, with Schwartz being mistaken for the Ripper by people who observed it? It would mean Schwartz, pursued by Pipe Man ran south on Berner Street, west on Fairclough, then south on Backcurch Lane to the railway arch.

[Fiver]

So someone sees Diemschutz and Kozebrodski running for a Constable and it gets interpreted as a chase?

This chase is supposed to have taken place around 12:45, which better fits Pipe Man chasing Schwartz.

[Wickerman]

Fanny Mortimer doesn't appear to have seen this chase at 12:45, either.

Could this chase be the one described by Israel Schwartz, with Schwartz being mistaken for the Ripper by people who observed it? It would mean Schwartz, pursued by Pipe Man ran south on Berner Street, west on Fairclough, then south on Backcurch Lane to the railway arch.

But Spooner has two men running past him, eastward along Fairclough.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This chase is supposed to have taken place around 12:45, which better fits Pipe Man chasing Schwartz.

Could the two have become conflated? I still sounds to me like the product of a garbled rumour Fiver.

[Fiver]

But Spooner has two men running past him, eastward along Fairclough.

I was referring to the October 1 Echo.

"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

The Echo account fails to mention which way the pursuit went along Fairclough.

If it went east, that could be a garbled misunderstanding of the two men seen by Spooner looking for the police.

If it went west, that could be a garbled misunderstanding of Schwartz being pursued by Pipe Man. Which would be an independent confirmation of Schwartz' story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Er, that was sarcasm I'm afraid, NBFN. I'm one of those who blames Schwartz for nothing.

The Schwartz incident adds considerably to the rich tapestry of Ripperology. Why throw that section away, just because the story is unlikely?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Okay, so who was it 'convenient' or 'lucky' for, to have Schwartz's account interpreted in such a way as to have two men involved in the assault on Stride, one of them named Lipski?

I associated those words with lines from the Star account. It was convenient for Schwartz to have a friend interpret for him, and it was 'lucky' for the Star reporter to have run Schwartz to earth with an interpreter conveniently at hand.
How did you work out that Schwartz thought one of the men were named Lipski? Where is that stated?

What if Abberline had taken this at face value? How convenient would that have been for the Jews at the club, considering they stupidly left the murdered woman to be found on their premises?

That might have helped, but the Jew/Gentile issue is secondary. If you recall my post regarding the Star accounts of prisoners, and Schwartz non-appearance at the inquest (the one you couldn't be arsed replying to), I focused on the issue of Schwartz amplifying the aggressiveness of Pipeman, relative to his police account. It is the behavior of the other men that is the real issue, not their religious background. In the Star account, no one says 'Lipski'.

I do not buy the idea of club members dumping the body onto Louis' cart, and then dumping it somewhere well away from the yard, as being one that would have been seriously considered by anyone, under any circumstances. It's a ludicrous notion.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree, it wasn't a chase.

... the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz ... finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

What wasn't a chase?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Echo account fails to mention which way the pursuit went along Fairclough.

If it went east, that could be a garbled misunderstanding of the two men seen by Spooner looking for the police.

If it went west, that could be a garbled misunderstanding of Schwartz being pursued by Pipe Man. Which would be an independent confirmation of Schwartz' story.

Slight problem. The following immediately precedes the Echo's man pursued story ...

FIVE SHILLINGS PER VISITOR.

The Club itself (proceeds the reporter), which is next door to the large gate, is now closed, but all this afternoon members and others who have special business there, are admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting this morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. The fee, the secretary explained, was to ...

The reporter spoke to Wess on Sunday afternoon. When did Schwartz go to Leman street? The Star, Oct 1:

INFORMATION WHICH MAY BE IMPORTANT was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder.

How could Wess have been informed of the Schwartz incident, before Schwartz had finished talking to Abberline?
If anyone's account is 'garbled', it is the one (or two) given by Schwartz!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes. If Israel Schwartz was telling the truth, then "parcel man" probably killed Elizabeth Stride. And based on behavior, "parcel man" probably was not the Ripper. That means Schwartz is the witness who best supports Michael's theory. Which leaves me baffled as to why Michael assumes the witness that best supports his theory was lying.

Not sure what you suppose to be the most likely scenario, but if Schwartz were telling the truth, why does he have a man walking down Berner street in front of him, when Smith had seen the man with parcel standing next to Stride, previously? Why did Schwartz say the man had nothing in his hands?

Do you realize that these problems exist regardless of who killed Elizabeth Stride? Do you realize that these problems exist regardless of whether you believe Schwartz, Mortimer, or both? Do you realize that if we take Mortimer's statement at face value, Lewis Diemschutz could not have arrived at 12:45?

That's right! How on earth did the murderer get by Fanny Mortimer, twice?
Why would I suppose that Diemschitz arrived at 12:45? What post of mine in the timeline debate, indicates I suppose that to have been the case? Or do you regard myself and Michael Richards as interchangeable?

There were three ways out of Dutfield's Yard - into the street, into the club, and into the houses that opened into the yard. Michael repeatedly ignores the last option - the police of the time did not.

Why do you keep mentioning MWR? If you'd prefer to argue with Michael, then reply to his posts instead.

"A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer." -Detective-Inspector Reid

There are several ways for Stride's killer to escape unnoticed by Fanny Mortimer.

If we accept Michael's theory that Lewis Deimshutz arrived at 12:45, then Mortimer failed to see or hear Deimschutz, his cart, and the pony. Anyone this unobservant would have missed seeing Stride's killer leave unless he was dancing down the streets waving a bloody knife and yelling that he was the Ripper.

Right, so moving on ...

Back in the realm of reality, there are several options.

The killer was Leon Goldstein, who Mortimer thought might have left Dutfield's Yard just before she went back inside.
The killer left into Berner Street before Mortimer began observing.
The killer left into Berner Street between Mortimer going back inside and Deimschutz' arrival.
The killer left into Berner Street between Deimschutz entering the club and the return of club members into the Yard. This requires not being detected by Deimschutz during this time.
The killer hid behind the doors into the Yard when Deimshutz arrived, then pretended to be one of the first people to come into the Yard after the alarm was raised. While this is not impossible, it is clearly a worse plan than just ducking into Berner Street when Deimschutz goes inside. It requires not being detected by a group, not just by a single man. It also requires the police and doctors failing in their search of you.

There is another

The bigger consideration for any theory is how did Elizabeth Stride get into Dutfield's Yard. The only reasonable possibilities are Stride entered the Yard before Fanny Mortimer came to her doorway or between Mortimer going back inside and Deimschutz' arrival.

The first option requires Stride to leak blood for many minutes after death.

The second option requires murderer and Stride to turn up right after Fanny locks up, and for murderer to be gone before Louis arrives. If that gap were a few minutes (debatable), it still requires a leap of faith to suppose that this is what happened. Although there is a way to make this scenario more plausible.

It just so happens that Goldstein fits right in the middle of these scenarios.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny Mortimer doesn't appear to have seen this chase at 12:45, either.

Because Schwartz was a fake witness

Could this chase be the one described by Israel Schwartz, with Schwartz being mistaken for the Ripper by people who observed it? It would mean Schwartz, pursued by Pipe Man ran south on Berner Street, west on Fairclough, then south on Backcurch Lane to the railway arch.

Who are these people who observed it? Why do we never hear from them?

According to the Met account, Schwartz crossed to the opposite side of the street, to avoid the man and woman situation. According to the Star account, the second man came from the doorway of the pub on the corner. Consequently, escaping Pipe/Knifeman means running down Fairclough street.
But all this is ultimately irrelevant. Pipeman was not a wanted man for more than about 24 hours. There was no chase, because there was no incident at the gateway, at or around 12:45.

[Wickerman]

How could Wess have been informed of the Schwartz incident, before Schwartz had finished talking to Abberline?
If anyone's account is 'garbled', it is the one (or two) given by Schwartz!

So, are you now in agreement the two men were Diemshitz & Kozebrodski?

[drstrange169]

>>... somehow Wess not only knows of this chase, but he was also told the name of the man who did the chasing, and knows that he is not a member of the club.<<

Wess simply seems to be repeating what was current street gossip, which was later found to be untrue.


Daily News 3/10/88