If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for.

So who did Herschburg get the details from?

Wouldn’t it just have been someone in the yard?

[Curious Cat]

A Fixed Point station only existed between the hours specified, after that the point was merely part of a regular constables beat.

According to Inspector Reid very few of these fixed-point men were on duty all night. For most of them their shift ended at one o'clock and they weren't replaced.

This is what Lamb had said about it in the Morning Advertiser of 3 October:
"There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty."

(I see you've beaten me to it, Jon - thanks for sharing the information!)

I see. This brings a little more light to one story involving a fixed point. From The Star on 16th November...


Mr. Galloway, a clerk employed in the City, and living at Stepney, has made the following statement :- "As I was going down the Whitechapel-road in the early hours of Wednesday morning, on my way home, I saw a man coming in the opposite direction, about fifty yards away. We both crossed the road simultaneously, and came face to face. The man had a very frightened appearance, and glared at me as he passed. I was very much struck with his appearance, especially as he corresponded, in almost every particular, with the man described by Mary Ann Cox. He was short, stout, about 35 to 40 years of age. His moustache, not a particularly heavy one, was of

A CARROTY COLOR, AND HIS FACE BLOTCHY

through drink and dissipation. He wore a long, dirty brown overcoat, and altogether presented a most villainous appearance. I stood still and watched him. He darted back almost immediately to the other side of the road, and then, apparently to avoid a group of women a little further on, crossed the road again. I determined to follow him, and just before reaching the coffee-stall past the church he again crossed the road. On nearing George-yard he crossed over and entered a small court. He reappeared in a couple of minutes, crossed Whitechapel-road for the sixth time, and proceeded up Commercial-street. Up to this time he had walked along briskly, but directly he got into Commercial-street, he slackened speed and

ACCOSTED THE FIRST WOMAN

whom he met alone, but was repulsed. On approaching Thrawl-street a policeman on point duty suddenly appeared. The man was evidently startled, and for a moment it looked as though he would turn back or cross the road. He recovered himself, however, and went on. I then informed the constable of what I had seen, and pointed out the man's extraordinary resemblance to the individual described by Cox. The constable declined to arrest the man, saying that he was looking for a man of a very different appearance."


This incident then must've happened between midnight and 1am, but the constable took no action. "Suddenly appeared," though? That suggests the constable wasn't exactly in position. It may mean that while they were within sight of their posts, some constables did a bit of meandering nearby. Or of course it could just have been this particular constable and his lack of action was down to being about to go off duty after a long shift.

A constable should also have been on point duty at Whitechapel Church (St Mary's) throughout the multiple road crossing part of this incident, but one isn't mentioned.



Elizabeth Stride would appear to be the only victim to be killed while point duty was still active.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Constable Joseph Drage, 282 H Division: On Monday morning at half-past twelve o'clock I was on fixed point duty opposite Brady-street, Whitechapel-road, when I saw the last witness stooping down to pick up something about twenty yards from me. As I went towards him he beckoned with his finger, and said, "Policeman, there is a knife lying here." I then saw a long-bladed knife on the doorstep. I picked up the knife, and found it was smothered with blood.
...
I had passed the step a quarter of an hour before. I could not be positive, but I do not think the knife was there then. About an hour earlier I stood near the door, and saw the landlady let out a woman. The knife was not there then. I handed the knife and handkerchief to Dr. Phillips on Monday afternoon.

Wickerman discusses

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Daily Telegraph: The production of the knife created some sensation, its discovery not having been generally known. It was a knife such as would be used by a baker in his trade, it being flat at the top instead of pointed, as a butcher's knife would be. The blade, which was discoloured with something resembling blood, was quite a foot long and an inch broad, whilst the black handle was six inches in length, and strongly rivetted in three places.

Irish Times: Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other, and her hips were drawn up as if she had suffered sharp pain.

Fanny Mortimer: I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ill respond to the Spooner part later as I have to go out.

When you're ready …

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Ill respond to the Spooner part later as I have to go out.

>When you're ready …<

I’ll certainly respond but can someone refresh my memory with some context here about this ‘chase.’ Where did Wess make his claim about a chase and what did he say? I can’t find anything by scrolling back but I possible just missed it.

[Joshua Rogan]

It's from the Echo, 1 Oct;

"A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ripper Confidential does the full quote like this:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

Perhaps this transcription could go into the press report?

[Curious Cat]

It's from the Echo, 1 Oct;

"A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

The same edition also has Diemschutz saying he arrived at 1am and discovered the body, so it's mixed reporting across the columns.

Separate reporters?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's from the Echo, 1 Oct;

"A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

Thanks Joshua

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ripper Confidential does the full quote like this:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

Perhaps this transcription could go into the press report?

So someone sees Diemschutz and Kozebrodski running for a Constable and it gets interpreted as a chase?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So someone sees Diemschutz and Kozebrodski running for a Constable and it gets interpreted as a chase?

Two issues with that interpretation:

one: The man being chased is a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer. Presumably you don't suppose Isaacs was the murderer. So who is 'the public', and why does 'the public' prefer to regard the man being chased (supposedly or not), as the murderer? Remember this was at about 12:45. Remember also, that Arbeter Fraint said the murder occurred at about a quarter to one. So does that mean Wess also regards the man who was chased, as being the murderer? Would that man be Israel Schwartz?

two: Wess cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Diemschitz was the club steward, so it cannot be him doing the 'chasing'. Yet somehow Wess not only knows of this chase, but he was also told the name of the man who did the chasing, and knows that he is not a member of the club.

So according to Wess, there was indeed a chase along Fairclough street, during the time Spooner says he was on that street. Yet Spooner never mentioned it, and no other witness mentioned it, as far as we know.

[Wickerman]

Who is this...." a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer "?

Whether this was Diemschitz & Kozebrodski, or Schwartz & Pipeman, neither Diemschitz nor Schwartz were viewed in public opinion as the murderer, as far as we can tell.

[Wickerman]

two: Wess cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Diemschitz was the club steward, so it cannot be him doing the 'chasing'. Yet somehow Wess not only knows of this chase, but he was also told the name of the man who did the chasing, and knows that he is not a member of the club.

So according to Wess, there was indeed a chase along Fairclough street, during the time Spooner says he was on that street. Yet Spooner never mentioned it, and no other witness mentioned it, as far as we know.

Both James Brown & Marshall claim to have heard cries of "police" or "murder" in the street.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Both James Brown & Marshall claim to have heard cries of "police" or "murder" in the street.

So did Spooner. Yet the search cannot be the chase. Did Brown or Marshall tell Wess the name of the man who chased the murderer?