If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

This assumes near perfectly synchronized clocks and watches.

A pointless statement. No one has ever said that 2 clocks couldn’t tell the same time. This is ridiculous nitpicking.

What was shortly after what? Do you know? Who was the man who called the policeman to Berner street? Was it Louis or Isaacs?

If it was after they had moved on then it was someone else calling and unnamed police officer.

Evasive. You would prefer Mortimer to have never spoken to the media.

The word is ‘reasonable.’

I agree with Smith's timings, plus or minus 3 or 4 minutes. So ask that all you like, but you've already been given an answer - it's just not the answer you want.
You also seem to think that hearing Smith pass is the sum total of what we have of what Fanny said. Not true. Also, your reference to "some doorstep busybody who can’t make her mind up about what she did", is more evidence that Mortimer is a threat to Old Theory Theorists.

Mortimer is no threat to any suggestion because we cannot tie her down to one version. How difficult can this be to understand?

One report starts earlier in time than the other. No mystery.

Joshua has already posted examples of the variants.

Wess implicitly pointed the finger at Schwartz, when interviewed by the Echo. Is that what you mean by a 'conspiracy/cover-up'?

He doesn’t point the finger at anyone except in your imagination.

A cover-up involves more than one person. Amelia Richardson was one person. As for Mitre Square, can you quote me suggesting a cover-up?

Richardson was one person and so was her son who you implied was acting as a bouncer by checking the cellar door. You also, unless I’m mis-remembering (and if I am you can point it out) suggested Eddowes being killed elsewhere.

This is appalling. So you decided to 'assign' another member's theory to me, without evidence, and now you are retracting that, for no apparent reason, only to continue to label me as a conspiracy theorist, without knowing what conspiracy theory I should now be 'assigned'. This really says a lot about you, Michael.

Stop reacting like some offended Regency Dandy who’s ‘demanding satisfaction.’ If you deny being a conspiracy theorist then fine. I’m an aardvark.

Round in circles we go.

Its impossible to discus the case if everything can mean anything.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here’s my rough ideas, for what it’s worth.

02:00 ish - Mrs Stride helps clean 2 rooms at Flower and Dean doss house.

05:00 - Fixed point officer takes over the duty at cnr. Grove and Commercial

6:00 ish - Mrs Stride cleans up (not to met a man as has been suggested, but to go to the Queens Head, Commercial St.

07:00 ish - Mrs Stride returns to the doss house, sans a man. She gives Catherine Lane a piece of velvet to mind.

8:00 ish - She leaves the Doss house.

9:00 ish - Krantz starts work at the Der Aberter Fraint printing office.
The debating in the club starts.

10:00 - Smith goes on duty (presumably Lamb too)

11:00 ish - Best and Gardner see Mrs Stride leave the bricklayers arms Settles St.

11:30 ish - The debate ends, most members leave.

11:45 ish - Marshall, standing in his doorway, sees Mrs Stride pass with a man.

12:00 ish - He goes back inside.
A young girl walks past the club mets her boyfriend.
They walk up and down past Berner St in Commercial Road.

12:15 ish - Wess and two others leave for home.

12:30 ish - The couple return down Berner.
Charles Letchford returns home, his wife has been standing at the door waiting for him.
Lave leaves the club eventually going into the street. Stays outside the club for about 10 minutes.
Smith goes through Berner Street and sees Mrs Stride with Parcel man.
Fanny Mortimer hears Smith (?) pass.
Eagle returns to the club.
Mortimer goes to her doorway (she may have looked out previously).

12:45 ish - Schwartz goes down Berner Street.
Brown leaves his house and goes to the Chandler shop in Berner St.

12:49 ish - Brown leaves the shop and sees Mrs Stride on the corner of the board school.
Florence Letchford is standing in her doorway.

12: 55 ish - Goldstein goes down Berner St.
Smith passes Berner St along Fairclough.

12:58 ish - Mortimer locks up and soon after hears Diemshitz’s cart pass by.

1:00 - Deimshitz turns into Berner Street.




Times become vague.

The body is discovered.
Eagle runs up Berner possibly turning left first and then right in Commercial road looking for a policeman.
Kozebrodski runs off down down Fairclough.
Deimshitz follows seconds behind, one/both are shouting “murder” and “police”. Onlookers and those that hear this think the murderer is being chased, giving rise to the rumours.
The two go as far as Grove, passing Spooner and his girl friend.
As they return Spooner goes with Diemshitz.
Mr. Harris come out and follows them to the club.
Kozebrodski goes up Batty.
He meets Eagle and they go down towards the fixed point.
They meet Lamb and the fixed point PC walking back.
Once at the club, Lamb blows his whistle.
Someone approaches PC Collins near Christian St. and he rushes to the club.
Brown hears all this.
Smith turns into Berner Street.
PC 426H goes for Blackwell and returns with Johnston.
Blackwell arrives, according to his watch, 1:16.

Important to note.

Nobody’s time is synced with Diemshitz’s, as far as we know.

Blackwell’s time is also not synced with anybody else’s, Although, it must be close to Johnston’s estimated time.

Every other persons time is an estimation.

I've probably missed something, I'm sure.

The only thing I’d point to Dusty is that Lamb got to the yard before Smith.

[FrankO]

I could really do with finding the quote where Eagle said that he didn’t look at the clock.

It's in the Morning Advertiser of 2 October and the Illustrated Police News of 6 October, Michael.

"Cad [sic] you fix the time the discovery was made? About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club."

And the Times of 2 October worded it as follows:
"When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A pointless statement. No one has ever said that 2 clocks couldn’t tell the same time. This is ridiculous nitpicking.

Then your point about timings lining up is also pointless. You can't have it both ways. Even if you're an Anti-Conspiracist fighting the good fight, you still can't have it both ways.

Mortimer is no threat to any suggestion because we cannot tie her down to one version. How difficult can this be to understand?

Then why are so keen to have her locking up before Schwartz? Is it because you need to protect Schwartz?

He doesn’t point the finger at anyone except in your imagination.

Of course not. It's all just a big coincidence, and you're not being evasive at all.

Richardson was one person and so was her son who you implied was acting as a bouncer by checking the cellar door.

The son did not deny that strange men and women had often been found in the house, whereas Amelia pretended otherwise, or played it down. She also did this each time she were recalled by Baxter. Obviously he could smell a rat.

You also, unless I’m mis-remembering (and if I am you can point it out) suggested Eddowes being killed elsewhere.

I think the Church Passage couple were Kate and her murderer.

Round in circles we go.

Its impossible to discus the case if everything can mean anything.

What does 1:05 minus 25 to 30 minutes mean? Did someone go to their doorstep, immediately after hearing the plod, and remain there for about 10 minutes?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Kozebrodski runs off down down Fairclough.
Deimshitz follows seconds behind, one/both are shouting “murder” and “police”. Onlookers and those that hear this think the murderer is being chased, giving rise to the rumours.

Did Kozebrodski 'escape' Diemschitz?

What was shortly after what? Do you know? Who was the man who called the policeman to Berner street? Was it Louis or Isaacs?

If it was after they had moved on then it was someone else calling and unnamed police officer.

Was the someone else who called the PC, also one of the mistaken onlookers? Or did this someone arrive, not shortly afterwards when the search party was running back to the yard, but shortly after that? That is, shortly after shortly after. If yes, how did this person know why a PC was wanted, and where they were wanted?

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.

In return I apologise for questioning your time regarding Johnson, having found the reference you were using (bloody reporters *%#$@).

The dictionary defines "few" as "not many but more than one". Google it. It could be stretched to four but certainly not 5 to 10. Be that as it may, we throw around discovered terms like "a few minutes before/after", "about", "shortly before/after" etc. These are trivial time terms when you look at Spooners time which appears the be at least a half an hour out. Times that are estimated by starting with an uncalibrated clock and adding a series of guessed time intervals are, IMHO, not worthy of consideration by either side of the discussion, and to be using said estimated times to deduce small differences in time between said estimated times does no credit to either side of the argument. As I have said before, the credibilty of a time estimate is inversly proportional to (the amount of time that has elapsed since the estimator last saw a clock, + any calibration errors of the clock they last saw).

Lastly, post # 1787 is not by Joshua, it's one of Dusty's.

Dusty - You certainly bowled me a googly with the Fixed point post. I re-read Reid's comments and, in my defence, he does gives a different impression. I'm becoming increasing frustrated with the liberties being taken by the reporting of testimony and the glaring differences that arise as a consequences. I'm abandoning the habit of having 50 computer tabs open at once and have decided that the Morning Advertiser has the most comprehensive coverage, so I'm sticking with that.
Looking at your timeline after the discovery of the body, my reading suggests that PC Collins was the fixed point PC station which was at the corner of Grove St. Also, the Coroner specifically asked Lamb where he was when the two men approached him, and which direction he was headed. His reply was, between Batty and Christian Streets headed back towards Berner St. I also discovered a statement by Diemshitz that said that one PC arrived followed by two more. So, did Lamb proceed to the yard alone, with Eagle, followed by Collins, when his fixed point expired, and Smith?

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

Looking at your timeline after the discovery of the body, my reading suggests that PC Collins was the fixed point PC station which was at the corner of Grove St.

Hi George,

It wasn't PC Collins who was at the fixed point station on the corner of Grove Street, but PC 426 H. Collins appeared at the crime scene before Smith arrived there (when Smith arrived, he identified the 2 PC present as constables 12 H and 252 H (Times of 6 October) - PC 426 H hadn't returned from the doctor's, yet). Collins very likely went to the crime scene as a result of Lamb's whistle blowing.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's in the Morning Advertiser of 2 October and the Illustrated Police News of 6 October, Michael.

"Cad [sic] you fix the time the discovery was made? About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club."

And the Times of 2 October worded it as follows:
"When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock."

I wasn’t imagining it after all

Thanks for that one Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Then why are so keen to have her locking up before Schwartz? Is it because you need to protect Schwartz?

I’m not trying to protect Schwartz. As I said in an earlier post we have no way of knowing for certain who was correct Smith or Mortimer. So what we know for certain is that we can’t say “Fanny Mortimer disproves Schwartz.” What we could say is “if Fanny Mortimer was correct she puts a doubt against Schwartz. The only thing that would keep Schwartz ‘alive’ would be the suggestion that he might have turned up slightly before 12.45.”

So all we can do is make our own individual judgments on who is likelier to have been correct of the two.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. The son did not deny that strange men and women had often been found in the house, whereas Amelia pretended otherwise, or played it down. She also did this each time she were recalled by Baxter. Obviously he could smell a rat.

And obviously the police didn’t. Only one person in history smelled this ‘rat.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
What does 1:05 minus 25 to 30 minutes mean? Did someone go to their doorstep, immediately after hearing the plod, and remain there for about 10 minutes?

Surely you accept that Smith wasn’t a robot? Not every round would have taken the same amount of time. He gave a 25-30 minute average. Is it such a stretch to suggest one round taking 31 minutes (just as an example?)

So what I’ve suggested should be entirely plausible to anyone. First pass 12.35 - 30 mins round - second pass 1.05 or 1.06. I don’t see how this can be considered unreasonable or implausible?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Was the someone else who called the PC, also one of the mistaken onlookers? Or did this someone arrive, not shortly afterwards when the search party was running back to the yard, but shortly after that? That is, shortly after shortly after. If yes, how did this person know why a PC was wanted, and where they were wanted?

Don’t know. Don’t care. Not relevant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Hi Herlock,

Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.

In return I apologise for questioning your time regarding Johnson, having found the reference you were using (bloody reporters *%#$@).

The dictionary defines "few" as "not many but more than one". Google it. It could be stretched to four but certainly not 5 to 10. Be that as it may, we throw around discovered terms like "a few minutes before/after", "about", "shortly before/after" etc. These are trivial time terms when you look at Spooners time which appears the be at least a half an hour out. Times that are estimated by starting with an uncalibrated clock and adding a series of guessed time intervals are, IMHO, not worthy of consideration by either side of the discussion, and to be using said estimated times to deduce small differences in time between said estimated times does no credit to either side of the argument. As I have said before, the credibilty of a time estimate is inversly proportional to (the amount of time that has elapsed since the estimator last saw a clock, + any calibration errors of the clock they last saw).

Hello George,

Id say that ‘a few’ can’t be quantified. 5 or 10 is a few. I could easily see myself saying a few minutes to describe 10 minutes.

[FrankO]

So, did Lamb proceed to the yard alone, with Eagle, followed by Collins, when his fixed point expired, and Smith?

If I may, I think that Lamb was actually close to the corner of Christian Street when the two men addressed him. That would explain why PC 426 H, whose station was about 50 meters further to the east, on the corner of Grove Street, followed Lamb. Lamb's evidence suggests that the 2 men who'd approached him (Eagle and Kozebrodski) went with Lamb to the corner of Berner Street to point out where he was needed. I can imagine that Lamb ran somewhat ahead, closely followed first by Eagle & Kozebrodski and then PC 426 H. Then, at the crime scene, Lamb sent PC 426 H for the doctor and Eagle for the police station and then blew his whistle, which attracted PC Collins. And only then Smith arrived.

All the best,
Frank

[Dickere]

Hello George,

Id say that ‘a few’ can’t be quantified. 5 or 10 is a few. I could easily see myself saying a few minutes to describe 10 minutes.

People are different of course so there's no right answer, but to me a few minutes is less than 10. Under 5 probably, otherwise I'd say 5 minutes or so.