If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That much blood doesn't happen in a short time.

This has noted many times. About as many times as it has been ignored or forgotten.

Coroner: Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
Phillips: I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

They moved the body. They also moved some of the blood.

[caz]

Diemschutz saw a clock and Blackwell owned a watch. So 1.00 and 1.16 are times that we should be confident about and timelines should be built around these.

But for some strange reason George it doesn’t appear to work like that. So we have to ask if it’s likely that he was mistaken or lying. I see no reason for him to have lied and those that do enter into conspiracist madness which I’m not even prepared give a seconds credence to. So could he have been mistaken? Well if the possibility existed, for example if he was a distance away, then he had no reason not to admit this. 1.00 or 1.01 or 1.02 would have made no difference to his statement. But he speaks with 100% confidence so there’s zero reason to doubt that he had a clear view of the clock. We know of no sight problems or that he had any problems reading the time. So the evidence is against him making an error. So viewing what he said there isn’t a smidgeon of evidence to suggest that he didn’t see that clock exactly when he said that he did. There just isn’t.

So what’s left for some (I’m not including you in this) is to say “ well I have another story and I need Diemschutz to have lied..”

His wife backed up his time.
Eagle said that he first sa the body around 1.00 (including Gilleman too)
Brown heard Diemschutz shouting for the police just after 1.00.
Even FM heard a cart at around 1.00.

If it quacks like a duck and we dismiss a ludicrous non-existent cover-up……

Hi Herlock,

It would have been a very natural thing for Louis D to do, as he returned each Saturday night from Westow Hill, which was "sarf" of the river, to check the time by that same clock, to see if he was earlier or later than usual. No reason to suppose this would have been the only time he had thought to look at it. He didn't know what he was going to find in the yard, or that his arrival time would soon be of more interest to others than it had been to himself. For me, that only makes it even less likely that he lied or was mistaken about what time the clock was showing as he passed it, but that doesn't tell us if it was keeping accurate time.

I still have no idea what nefarious reason he could possibly have had for lying, or 'sharpening' up the time. If he did lie, he got clean away with it, so there could have been nothing to alert the police that he was playing fast and loose with his discovery time.

This is just as much a non-starter as it was when Michael Richards first thought of it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lamb said: “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.”

He said, specifically, that he didn’t have a watch and his wording confirms that he was estimating the time. What he was basing that estimation on we have no way of knowing. So we are stuck with “About 1 o’clock.”

Edward Johnson was then called on. He said: “About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case, I accompanied the constable to Berner-street.”

So this points to the fact that Lamb was informed about the murder after 1.00 rather than at 1.00 because of the 5 or 10 minute time gap before Johnston received the call. So a time of around 1.05 is entirely reasonable and plausible for the time that Lamb was first informed of the murder. Certainly nothing contradicts this.

Dr Blackwell said: “I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m”

We also recall that Johnston said: “I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.”

So could anything be clearer?

Lamb was informed of the murder at around 1.05. Johnston learns of the murder between 1.05 and 1.10. Johnston, who is already dressed and accompanies the Constable, arrived at 1.12/1.13. Blackwell gets dressed and arrives 3 or 4 minutes later at 1.16 as per his watch.

I fail to see how anyone could take issue with this? This is solid stuff.

….


Then we have Diemschutz quoting 1.00 from a clock. Within a very short space of time he goes looking for a Constable with Kozebrodski and Eagle heads in the other direction. Diemschutz give up quickly (probably after looking first along Christian Street from the corner then along Grove Street. Coming back he talks to Spooner who returns with them.

Spooner gives 2 times in his statement. The 12.35 time and ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ time. The 12.35 just cannot be taken seriously and he’d only guessed at this time by pub closing times. If he’d arrived at the yard at 12.35 then Diemschutz must have found the body at 12.30. Smith passed the yard and saw nothing. No one hears anyone shouting for the police anytime remotely near to 12.30. Brown hears the calls at a time consistent with the body being discovered at 1.00. And with the the Lamb/Johnston/Blackwell timing being so solid we only have to consider Spooner’s 5 minutes before Lamb estimate. Taking a reasonable margin on time we can see that there is absolutely no issue with Spooner arriving at around 1.03 and Lamb arriving at 1.05/1.06. This requires no leap of faith. No manipulation of time. All that this asks us to accept is that Spooner’s ‘5 minutes’ was probably near ‘3 minutes.’

We have Sara Diemschutz confirming his return time. We have Morris Eagle first seeing the body at around 1.00 (after Gilleman dashed upstairs to tell everyone.)

What do we have against this? Well it’s feeble to say the least. Abraham Hoschberg who guesses at 12.45 using the words ‘about’ and ‘I should think.’ Clearly he was mistaken. The weight against him shows this.

As an aside, isn’t it strange that conspiracy theorists make much of Fanny Mortimer not seeing Schwartz at 12.45 but they are conveniently silent as to why she didn’t see Abraham Hoschberg pass her door. But of course it’s not surprising because we are used to such bias when there’s a conspiracist agenda.

This is of course illustrated by the approach to Fanny Mortimer. The inconvenient version is ignored. The suggestion that PC Smith might have been (and indeed was more likely to have been) accurate in his timing is dismissed as inconvenient. An incident that very obviously would have taken a matter of seconds is made to sound like a passing marching band that no one could have missed.

It’s a combination of conspiracist nitpicking, selective quoting, weird interpretations and a positive desire to create a mystery where none exists. Diemschutz discovered the body of Liz Stride at 1.00. This is beyond all reasonable doubt.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, No, No. Listen to Dusty. This is not the evidence. Blackwell said that he was surprised at the amount of blood on the ground for someone of Liz's size and weight. That much blood doesn't happen in a short time.

Cheers, George

Please read David Orsam’s article on this subject. Nothing about the medical evidence contradicts a time of death.

[DJA]

No, No, No. Listen to Dusty. This is not the evidence. Blackwell said that he was surprised at the amount of blood on the ground for someone of Liz's size and weight. That much blood doesn't happen in a short time.

Cheers, George

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia


Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia


Catechu - Wikipedia


Astringent - Wikipedia

AKA Hip Lip Lizzie.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

It would have been a very natural thing for Louis D to do, as he returned each Saturday night from Westow Hill, which was "sarf" of the river, to check the time by that same clock, to see if he was earlier or later than usual. No reason to suppose this would have been the only time he had thought to look at it. He didn't know what he was going to find in the yard, or that his arrival time would soon be of more interest to others than it had been to himself. For me, that only makes it even less likely that he lied or was mistaken about what time the clock was showing as he passed it, but that doesn't tell us if it was keeping accurate time.

I still have no idea what nefarious reason he could possibly have had for lying, or 'sharpening' up the time. If he did lie, he got clean away with it, so there could have been nothing to alert the police that he was playing fast and loose with his discovery time.

This is just as much a non-starter as it was when Michael Richards first thought of it.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

There was no reason for sharpening up his time of course. It’s a deliberate manipulation which is what we’ve been deluged with on this thread and others on events in Berner Street. I don’t even credit conspiracists with actually believing what they say. It’s close to trolling for me. Deliberate obtuseness. A child could see that there was no cover-up. It’s tiring, frustrating and a complete embarrassment and discredit to the subject!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What do we have against this? Well it’s feeble to say the least. Abraham Hoschberg who guesses at 12.45 using the words ‘about’ and ‘I should think.’ Clearly he was mistaken. The weight against him shows this.

As an aside, isn’t it strange that conspiracy theorists make much of Fanny Mortimer not seeing Schwartz at 12.45 but they are conveniently silent as to why she didn’t see Abraham Hoschberg pass her door. But of course it’s not surprising because we are used to such bias when there’s a conspiracist agenda.

Herschburg heard the pre-police police whistle, and arrived at the yard by 1am, as did Fanny.
It is ironic you mention Herschburg's timing, as according to you, Fanny had locked up by 12:45. This manipulation is required to keep Israel Schwartz safe. We don't want this case to be solved now, do we Michael?

Tell me when Fanny heard the pony & cart pass? Was it about 4 minutes after locking up? No? So another manipulation required.

This is of course illustrated by the approach to Fanny Mortimer. The inconvenient version is ignored.

I have posted about the version you refer to extensively, and much more than you have. On the other hand, you complaining about versions being ignored is super ironic. In fact, it's total hypocrisy.

The suggestion that PC Smith might have been (and indeed was more likely to have been) accurate in his timing is dismissed as inconvenient.

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

So you agree with this? I think it's very close to being correct.

An incident that very obviously would have taken a matter of seconds is made to sound like a passing marching band that no one could have missed.

No, it is not made to sound like that. You're making that up to protect Schwartz.
How long was Stride waiting at the gates and on the corner? She is part of the supposed incident, so this is relevant to the timespan of the 'Schwartz incident'.

It’s a combination of conspiracist nitpicking, selective quoting, weird interpretations and a positive desire to create a mystery where none exists.

Is it conspiracist thinking, or nit-picking? You can't have it both ways. Unless that is, you're an Anti-Conspiracist, and then you can have it both ways - justified on the grounds that you're doing a great service for humanity.

Diemschutz discovered the body of Liz Stride at 1.00. This is beyond all reasonable doubt.

I doubt Diemschitz was even the discoverer.

[Joshua Rogan]

We have Sara Diemschutz confirming his return time. We have Morris Eagle first seeing the body at around 1.00 (after Gilleman dashed upstairs to tell everyone.)

Don't forget these two (Daily News 2 Oct);

"Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

Julius Minsky, a Police[sic] Jew and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs."

[GBinOz]

Lamb said: “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.”

He said, specifically, that he didn’t have a watch and his wording confirms that he was estimating the time. What he was basing that estimation on we have no way of knowing. So we are stuck with “About 1 o’clock.”

Edward Johnson was then called on. He said: “About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case, I accompanied the constable to Berner-street.”

So this points to the fact that Lamb was informed about the murder after 1.00 rather than at 1.00 because of the 5 or 10 minute time gap before Johnston received the call. So a time of around 1.05 is entirely reasonable and plausible for the time that Lamb was first informed of the murder. Certainly nothing contradicts this.

Dr Blackwell said: “I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m”

We also recall that Johnston said: “I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.”

So could anything be clearer?

Lamb was informed of the murder at around 1.05. Johnston learns of the murder between 1.05 and 1.10. Johnston, who is already dressed and accompanies the Constable, arrived at 1.12/1.13. Blackwell gets dressed and arrives 3 or 4 minutes later at 1.16 as per his watch.

I fail to see how anyone could take issue with this? This is solid stuff.

….


Then we have Diemschutz quoting 1.00 from a clock. Within a very short space of time he goes looking for a Constable with Kozebrodski and Eagle heads in the other direction. Diemschutz give up quickly (probably after looking first along Christian Street from the corner then along Grove Street. Coming back he talks to Spooner who returns with them.

Spooner gives 2 times in his statement. The 12.35 time and ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ time. The 12.35 just cannot be taken seriously and he’d only guessed at this time by pub closing times. If he’d arrived at the yard at 12.35 then Diemschutz must have found the body at 12.30. Smith passed the yard and saw nothing. No one hears anyone shouting for the police anytime remotely near to 12.30. Brown hears the calls at a time consistent with the body being discovered at 1.00. And with the the Lamb/Johnston/Blackwell timing being so solid we only have to consider Spooner’s 5 minutes before Lamb estimate. Taking a reasonable margin on time we can see that there is absolutely no issue with Spooner arriving at around 1.03 and Lamb arriving at 1.05/1.06. This requires no leap of faith. No manipulation of time. All that this asks us to accept is that Spooner’s ‘5 minutes’ was probably near ‘3 minutes.’

We have Sara Diemschutz confirming his return time. We have Morris Eagle first seeing the body at around 1.00 (after Gilleman dashed upstairs to tell everyone.)

What do we have against this? Well it’s feeble to say the least. Abraham Hoschberg who guesses at 12.45 using the words ‘about’ and ‘I should think.’ Clearly he was mistaken. The weight against him shows this.

As an aside, isn’t it strange that conspiracy theorists make much of Fanny Mortimer not seeing Schwartz at 12.45 but they are conveniently silent as to why she didn’t see Abraham Hoschberg pass her door. But of course it’s not surprising because we are used to such bias when there’s a conspiracist agenda.

This is of course illustrated by the approach to Fanny Mortimer. The inconvenient version is ignored. The suggestion that PC Smith might have been (and indeed was more likely to have been) accurate in his timing is dismissed as inconvenient. An incident that very obviously would have taken a matter of seconds is made to sound like a passing marching band that no one could have missed.

It’s a combination of conspiracist nitpicking, selective quoting, weird interpretations and a positive desire to create a mystery where none exists. Diemschutz discovered the body of Liz Stride at 1.00. This is beyond all reasonable doubt.

Dear oh Dear Herlock,

You are engaging in the exact cherry picking of accounts of which you accuse others of doing. You attribute to Lamb a statement of "about 1 o'clock". In an other account it was "shortly before 1 o'clock". But then you fudge it out to five past one. Pretty creative time keeping for one that allowed less than two minutes for discovery time to alarm time.

Then you cherry pick "Edward Johnson was then called on. He said: “About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.".
Here is a different account:
Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the officer to Berner-street, and in a courtyard adjoining No. 40 I was shown the figure of a woman lying on her left side.

You then move on the enlist the testimony of Eagle, who scorned looking at a clock in favour of estimating time since he left his home, and in the next breath dismissing Hoschberg for doing exactly the same thing.

Then, in a final attempt to dazzle us with footwork, you dismiss Fanny Mortimer in favour of Smith, whom you contend didn't have the wit to look at a clock on his way to a murder scene.
FM and Smith are not mutually exclusive. If FM's clock was 10 minutes fast, which you have declred as a banner moment possibility, then FM and Smith's timing lock into place. You only have to look at Diemshitz's admission that he was running early on his usual arrival time of 1 o'clock and consider whether, after having told everyone that he arrived at 1 o'clock, he decided to add the clock reference to avoid looking foolish.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Don't forget these two (Daily News 2 Oct);

"Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

Julius Minsky, a Police[sic] Jew and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs."

More to be ignored. They were obviously in on the plot too Joshua

[c.d.]

This is just as much a non-starter as it was when Michael Richards first thought of it.

Speaking of Michael, it seems like he hasn't posted in some time which is quite unlike him. I wonder if he decided to go somewhere else? I hope he is okay.

c.d.

[GBinOz]

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

So you agree with this? I think it's very close to being correct.

So do I. This is the benchmark upon which all clock times should be measured. If Herlock confined his mathematical gymnastics to 12:30, the Coroners choice, plus a 30 minute round equal 1 o'clock at the Harris clock, and Smith not seeing Diemshitz there at that time then all would slot into place. It is cherry picking to assert support for Smith's accuracy at one point and then imply he is a complete nincompoop when it comes to looking at a clock at a critical point.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m tired of listening to dishonest posters. I can’t be bothered to respond individually but it’s childishly easy to do so. It’s the same old points that have been rebutted time and time again. Jeeeesus. Give it a rest!

Anyone who says that Diemschutz didn’t discover the body at 1.00 is contemptible. I wish that some would just f*^+k off back to the Grassy Knoll.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

More to be ignored. They were obviously in on the plot too Joshua

Is this the plot you're referring to...? https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...480#post759480

[Herlock Sholmes]

Don't forget these two (Daily News 2 Oct);

"Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

Julius Minsky, a Police[sic] Jew and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs."

So we have Diemschutz himself, his wife, Mila the servant, Julius Minsky and Morris Eagle (and by implication Gilleman) all confirming the time that the body was found but the Grassy Knollers STILL think that he was making it all up. And now reckons that Diemschutz didn’t find the body! I wondered how long it would take for the infection to spread from the man who gave us Mr Richardson’s Basement Brothel and who started the biggest waste of time thread in the world, the laughable ‘whip’ thread. Just hang around everyone and you’ll hear that someone else died instead of Stride or that Diemschutz was a Special Branch spy.

Pathetic

A time of around 1.05 for Lamb ties in perfectly with the reliable timing of Johnston and Blackwell but that’s dismissed too.

Brown hears the cries of ‘murder’ at just the time that fits with what the ‘plotters’ say. So perhaps Brown was in on it too? How much clearer could this be?

….

Conspiracists can continue their infection of the subject but I’m tired and bored of it.