The perfect witness who won't testify

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Simon. And I daresay that is the place.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hello Errata. "Finsbury."

Cheers.
LC

Hell. Substitution error. I was watching a history of Scotland thing when I was typing.

[Errata]

Hi All,

In 1888 the YMCA was at 28 Finsbury Square.

Regards,

Simon

Which I suppose begs the question, what was a successful married businessman doing at a YMCA?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Also at 28 Finsbury Square was the "German Association", listed in various books as being of a Christian persuasion.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

better

Hello Simon. Thanks. Better still.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hi All,

Also at 28 Finsbury Square was the "German Association", listed in various books as being of a Christian persuasion.

Regards,

Simon

Weren't those types of places for immigrants? I think Wirtofsky had to have been British born. People tend not to give their kids names their language cannot pronounce, and Polish (and Yiddish) have no J sound. I'm still not solid on why the name was written out as Wirtofsky as opposed to Virtofsky, but the poor Germans have enough problems with spelling, I can't really lay into them for that. It's just unsporting.

[lynn cates]

history

Hello Simon, Errata. Here's an historical link.

Cheers.
LC

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zf9DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=christian+home+28+finsbury+square&source=bl&ots=M1SdapiO8z&sig=N3YK2iEUCB53--baLqMrywOJLPY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mYGrUPjQBtC3qAGL7IHwCQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=christian%20home%2028%20finsbury%20square&f=false

[lynn cates]

Hello Simon. Where is Providence Hall in Finsbury Square? (see entry #689)

Cheers.
LC

http://books.google.com/books?id=T1mynR4pGoYC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=christian+home+28+finsbury+square&source=bl&ots=IkInuD4U7p&sig=oeKjLUHn8HHy8b7TFgk5Xrc3GXU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8oKrUNSjGIqc2QXB2YG4CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=christian%20home%2028%20finsbury%20square&f=false

[lynn cates]

etwas mehr

Hello Simon. A bit more history.

Cheers.
LC

http://www.german-ymca.org.uk/about-us-history.html

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Well done.

Interesting. And a connection to Whitechapel.

Regards,

Simon

[Errata]

Hello Simon, Errata. Here's an historical link.

Cheers.
LC

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zf9...square&f=false

I'm familiar with the work of the YMCA, it's the German Association part I thought was an immigrant assistance organization.

[Bridewell]

I noticed a book in 'The Works' in Newark the other day which was some kind of gazetteer of places in London in 1888. I'm going to Newark in the morning so I'll try and get hold of a copy.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Paddy]

Hi Folks
Re Earlier witness discussion.

I have often thought that if a witness refused to testify, if might have been one of Aarons family. Maybe by providing an alibi? This could have explained Andersons statement about the Jewish people refusing to give up one of their own to justice.

With this in mind can anybody tell me if there is any Jewish law regarding a brother giving cause to the death of his brother. If Aarons relation thought he was mentally ill and would be hung, I wonder how it would sit with their concience. Also is their any rulings in the Jewish faith regarding mental health?
If a rabbi were to advise I wonder what he would have said?
I would really appreciate your comments, thanks.

Pat................

[RivkahChaya]

There's no rule that you cannot testify against a member of your own family, not in a secular court, nor a rabbinical court.

The only "conflict" if you can call it that, is in the Scotland Yard police drawing conclusions from testimony to circumstantial evidence, that would not be permitted in a rabbinical court. For example, a prosecuting attorney, in both the US and the UK (and in secular courts in Jerusalem right now, where there is no death penalty) can suggest that the last person known to be with the victim, either by eyewitness testimony, forensic evidence, or both, is probably the killer. According to the Talmud, a murder case for which the death penalty is the expected result cannot be prosecuted that way. An "eyewitness" can be an eyewitness only to the actual crime, not to very suggestive circumstances right before it. There are other qualifications for death penalty witnesses.

If the witness had a problem with testifying, it might have had to do with this, although I am not sure what a rabbi would have said. There are some rabbis who would have advised him to cooperate with the police, especially in the case of a repeat murderer, not someone the rabbi thought had killed once, but would not do it again. On the other hand, the fact that the suspect was locked away, and not likely to be freed, might have made a difference.

Honestly, not all rabbis not, in the US would give the same advice, and I can only guess at what the ones I know would say. I can't guess what theoretical rabbis in 1888 would say, other than it would not be "don't narc on your brother," because that rule just doesn't exist.

In 1888, there were no rules regarding criminal law and mental health. There have been rabbinical court decisions since then, but those mostly guide the state of Israel, or advise families with a mentally ill member who has harmed someone, but not to the point of committing a felony, although there is fear that will happen in the future, and the interest is prevention.

From the time of the pogroms, until the state of Israel, rabbinical courts handled only civil matters, such as marriages, divorces, disputes between two Jews, and religious matters, and the 1888 was in this hole, when very little new law was made, and this also happened to be the time the concept of mental illness was forming.

So if a Jew refused to testify, it had to do either with a misunderstanding of the rules of directly witnessing something, or it possibly had to with fear over being sworn in. See my earlier posts, where I talked about horror stories from the middles ages, which may have more or less truth, but certainly could scare a Jew away from wanting to testify. Since a Jew couldn't swear on the bible, the courts were rumored to use other methods of intimidation, sometimes pretty frightening, or painful.

[Paddy]

Thankyou for the detailed information. I found it very interesting.

Pat.................