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  • #16
    Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
    Well it's obvious that because the Mason idea was blown by the silly accusation against the Royal Ripper, does not mean it was not a Mason who committed the crime.
    No, but it does leave you searching for another motive.


    The first interview Packer gave was to a newspaper, the police hadn't even bothered him.
    Sgt. White wrote that he interviewed Packer on the 30th, three days before the Evening News story.
    Packer, apparently, had changed his mind.



    Regards, Jon S.

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    • #17
      What the report say? Changed his mind from what to what?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
        What the report say? Changed his mind from what to what?
        Packer was interviewed by Sgt White about 9:00am on the 30th (Sun), Packer told White that he saw no-one standing about, nor anyone go up the yard, and he closed up shop at 12:30.

        Packer was later interviewed by a journalist a couple of times (Tues & Wed?) the following week, he told the press no-one from the police had come to interview him. He told them about seeing a couple who bought grapes and stood around in the street for a while.

        On the 4th (Thurs), Packer was interviewed again by Sgt White (twice, it seems), now he told White that he had sold grapes to the victim.

        Packer may have given a further interview at the station because we see a few notes taken by Carmichael-Bruce (Assist. Commissioner) where Packer now claims this encounter took place about 11:00pm, not 12:00am.

        There are a few details in this memo that did not appear in the newspapers, so it looks like Packer may have given this other previously unknown interview.
        Regards, Jon S.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          Packer was interviewed by Sgt White about 9:00am on the 30th (Sun), Packer told White that he saw no-one standing about, nor anyone go up the yard, and he closed up shop at 12:30.

          Packer was later interviewed by a journalist a couple of times (Tues & Wed?) the following week, he told the press no-one from the police had come to interview him. He told them about seeing a couple who bought grapes and stood around in the street for a while.

          On the 4th (Thurs), Packer was interviewed again by Sgt White (twice, it seems), now he told White that he had sold grapes to the victim.

          Packer may have given a further interview at the station because we see a few notes taken by Carmichael-Bruce (Assist. Commissioner) where Packer now claims this encounter took place about 11:00pm, not 12:00am.

          There are a few details in this memo that did not appear in the newspapers, so it looks like Packer may have given this other previously unknown interview.
          Packer was taken to the mortuary where he positively identified Stride and also had a private meeting with Swanson in the presence of 'Private Detectives' Bachelor & Grand, after the newspaper report was published. I don't believe White visitied Packer at all on the 30th.
          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post
            I believe it was actually good policework to exclude Packer and Schwartz. I think Packer was making it up for attention, and Schwartz was spinning a tall tale to deflect attention as much as possible from the club. There is no corroboration of either story, and indeed Schwartz is contradicted by witnesses who saw nothing at all.
            Thats pretty much the same view I have Damaso, although I see the "good policework" in a different light. I believe the cumulative data from all the alleged Ripper case histories suggests that the police made statements to the public via the press that they knew were wrong when they made them. To allow for privacy for investigations into lots of different possibilities without the press dogging them. I think the fact that we have 3 detectives searching alleyways at almost 2 in the morning within just the city itself suggests that the investigations were following leads or hunches that we are not privy to. They withheld, mislead and offered misdirection in many instances.

            That doesnt surprise me. The Senior investigators did those kinds of things daily, thats what counter espionage and terrorism agencies do. A cloak or a veil of secrecy is something that surrounds almost every case they would investigate. Maybe those three detectives in an alley suggest that at least some investigations were exploring the possibility that the crimes were not simply micro regional events. Not just one mad man working his mile.
            Michael Richards

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            • #21
              Originally posted by erobitha View Post

              Packer was taken to the mortuary where he positively identified Stride and also had a private meeting with Swanson in the presence of 'Private Detectives' Bachelor & Grand, after the newspaper report was published. I don't believe White visitied Packer at all on the 30th.
              Are you sure you're not confusing Swanson with Warren?, Grand & Batchelor claimed to take him there.
              I doubt that ever happened either, but we do have a memo by the Assistant Commissioner, it's just not their role (Warren or Carmichael-Bruce) to interview witnesses. That responsibility falls to Abberline.
              Regards, Jon S.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                Are you sure you're not confusing Swanson with Warren?, Grand & Batchelor claimed to take him there.
                I doubt that ever happened either, but we do have a memo by the Assistant Commissioner, it's just not their role (Warren or Carmichael-Bruce) to interview witnesses. That responsibility falls to Abberline.
                It was under guise to meet Warren but he ended up with Swanson instead.
                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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                • #23
                  If he was taken to meet a senior police officer, then why? If he was bogus why bother?

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                  • #24
                    It appears that no one can say for absolute certainty what time MJK was murdered. There was hardly anything left of her intact, the liver was out of the body and the room was warm. The doctors both said different times, but the one (or three) objective witness Caroline Maxwell, who had known MJK for 3 or 4 months say's she definitely saw and spoke to Kelly between 08.00 and 08.30 the morning after she was supposed to have been killed. In fact saw her twice. As did 2 other people. Why was this ignored? (Why was the fact that her femur was split with an axe not examined?} If she was alive at 08.30am then every description of who she was with the previous night and early morning is irrelevant. A distraction. Can someone here give a plausible explanation?

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                    • #25
                      Of late I have done quite a bit of research, re-reading and re-thinking the Ripper case. It does appear that much of the stuff I thought, or took as gospel, is now in that grey area we all hate. I thought MJK was killed in the early hours, my research now throws that in doubt. I thought Lawende an objective witness, now I think he could have seen the wrong whore. I am even beginning to doubt that Stride was a ripper killing. I think she was, but I'm not certain. I have not seen or read anything that proves any of the above one way or another, and as a historian, in my spare time, I have to stick with fact where there is fact. I'm willing to bet that no-one on this board would stake their life that JtR killed only 5 women. 99% maybe sure but not 100. Looking at the whole case, the only real witness who is credible and may help solve it is Caroline Maxwell. Hutchinson wanted to be the guy who caught the ripper it seems. If and that is if, he did have that little convo with MJK, then hang around for 45 mins, it could have been he was hoping to catch the killer, got nothing, then chatted up the papers, telling them he was now Sherlock Holmes. Caroline Maxwell was no newspaper seeker. She said what occurred then vanished back into the squalor. If this board is ever to come closer to identifying the killer, we must clear out the false evidence, statements and reports and look with a clearer and unbiased eye. Not with our candidate in the background but with a big ? I wish us luck, but I don't think we need it.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
                        If he was taken to meet a senior police officer, then why? If he was bogus why bother?
                        Matthew Packer is almost exactly like Schwartz and also Hutchinson,two conflicting statements,still believed,believed for a while all through October during the inquests,although not included by Baxter.Then dropped.
                        Last edited by Varqm; 02-22-2021, 08:19 PM.
                        Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                        M. Pacana

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