Why Wasn't Hutchinson used to try to ID Kosminski?

[Abby Normal]

I'd like to think it was threatening his sister that brought Kosminski to the attention of the police, but domestic disturbances, even very violent ones, seem to have been a commonplace, so I wonder if the police would have given a second thought to such a threat by Kosminski. If such a thing happened, it seems more likely to me to have been the reason the family gave as a reason for wanting Kosminski certified. Given that the police seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to have Kosminski identified, I suspect that they would have a lot more to go on than someone just making a threat with a knife that apparently came to nothing. That's just a feeling, of course.

hi paul
thanks. yes a domestic. but an insane jew?and threatening a woman with a knife?? the profile back then for the ripper to a tee no?
yes im sure it was the final straw for the family to have him certified and institutionalized also, but maybe they also reported it to the police.

even if they didnt report to the police and only to the doctors, perhaps it was a dr or someone who worked there that told the police.

my main point being that the knife incident was in some way the final straw and was the catalyst that got him eventually to the notice of the police.

and if they "had a lot more to go on" what was it? mcnaughyen says he had strong homicidal tendency was insane and had a great hatred of woman. sounds like he could be recalling the knife incident with his sister perhaps?

[harry]

In every problem there are usually a number of elements that have to be proven,if one want's a true explanation.The seaside home identification is no exception.It is clear in this problem the main three elements are,a suspect,a witness,and a venue.Not one of the elements can be proven.One might believe the marginella answers one of the elements,but does It? No,because that in itself requires a number of elements of proof,and proof there is'nt.

[PaulB]

But Baron do we have any way of knowing the extent of their investigation into Kosminski? Just because they allegedly attempted an identification of him doesn't necessarily mean that they did an extensive investigation of him. It might have been based on a little bit of information and a hunch that he was their man.

c.d.

It's worth considering the difficulty Swanson says they went to so that the suspect could be confronted by the witness. As far as I know, what Anderson and Swanson describe was extraordinary, and Anderson seems to blame the witness's refusal to testify for preventing the police from bringing charges, so the overall impression is that the police felt they had a good case against the suspect and just needed the witness's testimony. Add to that the 'many circs' mentioned by Macnaghten and I would suggest that it all indicates a little more than a bit of information garnished with a hunch. Obviously, things are open to different interpretations.

[PaulB]

I can tell you I am not wrong everything about the so-called mythical ID parade is wrong both from a police perspective, from a practical perspective, and from an evidential perspective.

And the marginalia has not proved to have been conclusively penned by Swanson.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You can tell me you're not wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not wrong. The facts have established that you are wrong, but you want to question the authenticity of the marginalia and you have been peddling your nonsense for how long? - Five years? Ten? Repeating the same arguments over and over, ignoring what your are told, disregarding the evidence, just sayng the same old crap. Every objection you have ever raised has been answered many times over, but you just deny it and make the same arguments again. Good, proper analysis and discussion always gets sidetracked by you pushing your asinine ideas. You don't do anything to progress discussion and understanding, you obstruct it. Carry on, Trevor. I'm sure you will.

[PaulB]

hi paul
thanks. yes a domestic. but an insane jew?and threatening a woman with a knife?? the profile back then for the ripper to a tee no?
yes im sure it was the final straw for the family to have him certified and institutionalized also, but maybe they also reported it to the police.

even if they didnt report to the police and only to the doctors, perhaps it was a dr or someone who worked there that told the police.

my main point being that the knife incident was in some way the final straw and was the catalyst that got him eventually to the notice of the police.

and if they "had a lot more to go on" what was it? mcnaughyen says he had strong homicidal tendency was insane and had a great hatred of woman. sounds like he could be recalling the knife incident with his sister perhaps?

All that could be true. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm simply suggesting that violent domestic disturbances were so commonplace that the police are unlikely to have raised an eyebrow at a threat with a knife, whereas the threat of domestic violence may have made a caring for an insane family member intolerable and/or provided an excuse for having that person committed. That's in part why I'm not sure that an insane person threatening a family member with a knife does fit the profile of the Ripper to a tee.

Macnaghten does indeed say that Kosminski had strong homicidal tendencies, but I don't know that that really fits a threat with a knife. Of course, we don't know how serious the incident was, so maybe it does.

[Trevor Marriott]

You can tell me you're not wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not wrong. The facts have established that you are wrong, but you want to question the authenticity of the marginalia and you have been peddling your nonsense for how long? - Five years? Ten? Repeating the same arguments over and over, ignoring what your are told, disregarding the evidence, just sayng the same old crap. Every objection you have ever raised has been answered many times over, but you just deny it and make the same arguments again. Good, proper analysis and discussion always gets sidetracked by you pushing your asinine ideas. You don't do anything to progress discussion and understanding, you obstruct it. Carry on, Trevor. I'm sure you will.

I present the facts and have continued to present the facts in support of what I say, what do you present to support your postulations? and it's not just about the marginalia, prove that the ID could not have taken place as described, and the proof of the authenticity of the marginalia is brought into question, which you seek to heavily rely on.

It's not rocket science!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I present the facts and have continued to present the facts in support of what I say, what do you present to support your postulations? and it's not just about the marginalia, prove that the ID could not have taken place as described, and the proof of the authenticity of the marginalia is brought into question, which you seek to heavily rely on.

It's not rocket science!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Just to clarify, are you saying the marginalia isn't authentic as in Swanson didn't write it, or do you mean he did write it, he was just plain wrong?

Adam Wood did a good podcast on the marginalia which really shed light on the likelihood of it being penned by Swanson, which I thought was a good addition to the matter. Personally, I don't see there's much to base it being faked on. How accurately it describes events is always going to be up for debate.

The seaside ID is really left field, not an obvious thing for anyone to make up and required a degree of 'inside knowledge' regarding the police holiday home. I've always felt Swanson was sincere when he wrote about it, he knew what he was referring to, but it's left us with a puzzle. Does it mean Kosminski was the ripper? Nope. Was Swanson spot on in his recall? Probably not. But he must be referring to something that actually happened, even if it doesn't tally up with what we understand about police procedure at the time.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

Just to clarify, are you saying the marginalia isn't authentic as in Swanson didn't write it, or do you mean he did write it, he was just plain wrong?

Adam Wood did a good podcast on the marginalia which really shed light on the likelihood of it being penned by Swanson, which I thought was a good addition to the matter. Personally, I don't see there's much to base it being faked on. How accurately it describes events is always going to be up for debate.

The seaside ID is really left field, not an obvious thing for anyone to make up and required a degree of 'inside knowledge' regarding the police holiday home. I've always felt Swanson was sincere when he wrote about it, he knew what he was referring to, but it's left us with a puzzle. Does it mean Kosminski was the ripper? Nope. Was Swanson spot on in his recall? Probably not. But he must be referring to something that actually happened, even if it doesn't tally up with what we understand about police procedure at the time.

Despite what Adam Wood and Paul Begg say, the marginalia has not conclusively been proven to have been written in its entirety by Swanson.The handwriting expert they seek to rely on cannot conclusively state that it was. I have spent a lot of time assessing and evaluating all the facts surrounding the marginalia and the ID parade, so I am not aversed to making sweeping statements that I am unable to back up.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

All that could be true. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm simply suggesting that violent domestic disturbances were so commonplace that the police are unlikely to have raised an eyebrow at a threat with a knife, whereas the threat of domestic violence may have made a caring for an insane family member intolerable and/or provided an excuse for having that person committed. That's in part why I'm not sure that an insane person threatening a family member with a knife does fit the profile of the Ripper to a tee.

Macnaghten does indeed say that Kosminski had strong homicidal tendencies, but I don't know that that really fits a threat with a knife. Of course, we don't know how serious the incident was, so maybe it does.

thanks paul

i just think if it was anything else that brought him to the attention of the police, we would have heard about it from one of the three police officers that talked about him (and in some detail). maybe not.

If it was something else, what do you think it could have possibly been?

[Abby Normal]

Despite what Adam Wood and Paul Begg say, the marginalia has not conclusively been proven to have been written in its entirety by Swanson.The handwriting expert they seek to rely on cannot conclusively state that it was. I have spent a lot of time assessing and evaluating all the facts surrounding the marginalia and the ID parade, so I am not aversed to making sweeping statements that I am unable to back up.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor

I am not aversed to making sweeping statements that I am unable to back up.

appreciate your honesty. lol

[PaulB]

I present the facts and have continued to present the facts in support of what I say, what do you present to support your postulations? and it's not just about the marginalia, prove that the ID could not have taken place as described, and the proof of the authenticity of the marginalia is brought into question, which you seek to heavily rely on.

It's not rocket science!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

More of the same from you, Trevor. More utter rubbish. You haven't presented any facts. Not a single one. You don't believe the marginalia is authentic and don't believe the identification makes sense, and you just endlessly repeat that like a broken record. On and on and on.

Why is it impossible for you to grasp that I am not heavily relieing on the marginalia. I am only trying to make sense of a source document. I don't have to prove the identification took place, that it took place is what the source tells us and there is no good reason to believe that the source is unreliable. If you think it is unreliable, you prove it. I'm happy that the marginalia is authentic. I don't know of a single piece of evidence that argues otherwise. If you do, enlighten us. But so far a lot of time better spent on other things has been wasted trying to satisfy your meanderings. All the evidence has been laid out by Adam Wood in articles in Ripperologist. You have not suggested anything sensible that can further be done. You're just wasting everyone's time.

[Trevor Marriott]

More of the same from you, Trevor. More utter rubbish. You haven't presented any facts. Not a single one. You don't believe the marginalia is authentic and don't believe the identification makes sense, and you just endlessly repeat that like a broken record. On and on and on.

Why is it impossible for you to grasp that I am not heavily relieing on the marginalia. I am only trying to make sense of a source document. I don't have to prove the identification took place, that it took place is what the source tells us and there is no good reason to believe that the source is unreliable. If you think it is unreliable, you prove it. I'm happy that the marginalia is authentic. I don't know of a single piece of evidence that argues otherwise. If you do, enlighten us. But so far a lot of time better spent on other things has been wasted trying to satisfy your meanderings. All the evidence has been laid out by Adam Wood in articles in Ripperologist. You have not suggested anything sensible that can further be done. You're just wasting everyone's time.

Why don't you stop trying to muddy the waters on this issue by continually throwing up derogatory remarks about myself and the results of my research?

Every time I post something you don't agree with all I get back is this load of old tosh. I get the feeling that you don't like to be proved to be wrong, well you are so live with it, but cut the continual crap, it's becoming boring to me and to those who are genuinely interested in getting to the bottom of these two contentious issues.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

Hi Trevor,

Just to clarify, are you saying the marginalia isn't authentic as in Swanson didn't write it, or do you mean he did write it, he was just plain wrong?

Adam Wood did a good podcast on the marginalia which really shed light on the likelihood of it being penned by Swanson, which I thought was a good addition to the matter. Personally, I don't see there's much to base it being faked on. How accurately it describes events is always going to be up for debate.

The seaside ID is really left field, not an obvious thing for anyone to make up and required a degree of 'inside knowledge' regarding the police holiday home. I've always felt Swanson was sincere when he wrote about it, he knew what he was referring to, but it's left us with a puzzle. Does it mean Kosminski was the ripper? Nope. Was Swanson spot on in his recall? Probably not. But he must be referring to something that actually happened, even if it doesn't tally up with what we understand about police procedure at the time.

Despite what Adam Wood and Paul Begg say, the marginalia has not conclusively been proven to have been written in its entirety by Swanson.The handwriting expert they seek to rely on cannot conclusively state that it was. I have spent a lot of time assessing and evaluating all the facts surrounding the marginalia and the ID parade, so I am not aversed to making sweeping statements that I am unable to back up.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

AL Bundy's Eyes - that's my view too.

The forensic document examiner was satisfied that the marginalia was written in its entirety by Swanson. Trevor can't accept it. He doesn't want the marginalia to be authentic. It's as simple as that. He's repeated the same arguments for years and years, and has nothing to back up anything he says; not that he ever says very much beyond flogging a horse that isn't just dead, it's crumbling, white bones.

It doesn't matter to me, or Adam, whether the marginalia is authentic or not. We don't have any favoured theory resting on it. We, are just trying to make sense of a source, just like you and almost everyone else. I think everything has been done to authenticate the marginalia, including test undertaken in an effort to satisfy Trevor's meanderings, and Adam and Keith Skinner put it all into a deeply researched paper in Ripperologist a little while back, and updated it in the podcast you mentioned. It's all there, open for examination.

Until someone can show that the marginalia is fake in part or in whole, it has to stand as a genuine source telling a story that it's author, Swanson, believed to be true. If the story was clear and straightforward, we wouldn't be having this exchange. Sadly, it isn't, so we have to try to understand it. As you say, something actually happened even if it doesn't make sense to us.

[PaulB]

thanks paul

i just think if it was anything else that brought him to the attention of the police, we would have heard about it from one of the three police officers that talked about him (and in some detail). maybe not.

If it was something else, what do you think it could have possibly been?

Actually, none of the three police officers say what brought the suspect to the attention of the police, do they? Isn't the threat to the sister just mentioned in Aaron Kosminski's case notes? If so, I suppose it's open to question whether the police even knew about the threat. As for what brought the suspect to the attention of the police, I have no idea.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I meant to say it was Adams article in Ripperologist that shed an interesting light on things. The podcasts are good too, but I highly recommend the article first, in case anyone might have missed it.

Ripperologist - It's a free, PDF format magazine emailed directly every (insert rough publication schedule here), featuring quality articles by leading authors and researchers, all skillfully edited and tastefully presented. Get your copy now!

(Paul, when do I get that tenner?)