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Why Wasn't Hutchinson used to try to ID Kosminski?

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  • Plus Hutchinson had to walk for six hours to reach his destination,spend time walking in Romford,then at the end walk around Whitechapel.Yes I'm sure people did it on a regular basis.Hard men these Victorians.

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    • Originally posted by harry View Post
      Plus Hutchinson had to walk for six hours to reach his destination,spend time walking in Romford,then at the end walk around Whitechapel.Yes I'm sure people did it on a regular basis.Hard men these Victorians.

      Abberline who knew more about Whitechapel, its people and their actions than anyone else did not see it as suspicious. Therefore one must infer that it was common or at least not unheard of. In this respect 132 years later I will take Abberlines view over everyone on this forum put together.

      Comment


      • I'm not speculating about Whitechapell, but the capabilities of persons,to do certain things.One only has to watch Olympic walk races to understand my point,and they walk in vest and shorts,not cumbersome and heavy clothing.

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        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          And yes he was engaged with stalking behaviour with kelly.
          This is a common thing to write for some when commenting on Hutchinson: He was a stalker. He stalked Kelly.

          The ones who use the phrase are typically identical with the ones who regard Hutchinson as the likely killer of Mary Kelly.

          In his paper interview, Hutchinson tells us that "After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed." He does not say whether he was aware of how his regular haunt would be closed as he arrived from Romford, but seeing as it was the place where he used to crash, the inference is that he would have been well aware of this. He nevertheless made the trek from Romford, and that can perhaps be explained by Hutchinsons situation - if you have no money (and he had no money, he was spent out as per his own admittance to Kelly), then your chances of finding somewhere to spend the night will be much better in familiar surroundings than in unfamiliar ones. So when Hutchinson chose to trek to London with no money in his pocket, it sounds to me like he preferrred to entertain some hope of finding shelter for at least a few morning hours there instead of trying his luck in Romford where he likely had no friends and was not a regular visitor.

          Now, once he arrived in London, walking to his regular joint would not be any idea since he would have known they were closed for the night. However, walking the streets in a neighbourhood where he knew a prostitute friend of his made her rounds would make a whole lot of sense. Running into her could perhaps provide those morning hours under a roof, once she had finished working for the night. When Hutchinson ran into her, she made it clear that she was still looking for business, and so Hutchinson would have to wait for the opportunity to arrive to ask for shelter. And the one and only place he could wait for that opportunity would be right outside her lodgings. Otherwise, he ran the risk of loosing Kelly out of sight. And so he took up his vigil, but the business between Kelly and A man proved to be a lenghty one, and Hutchinson decided that walking the streets to gain a little self-generated warmth was a better idea than to stand still in a chilly doorway as the night drew on.

          If this was what happened - and I donīt see why it would not have been - then how does it make Hutchinson a stalker? The simple answer is that it doesnīt. And of course, the fewest stalkers will go to the police and tell them about their explorations in the stalking business.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

            This is a common thing to write for some when commenting on Hutchinson: He was a stalker. He stalked Kelly.

            The ones who use the phrase are typically identical with the ones who regard Hutchinson as the likely killer of Mary Kelly.

            In his paper interview, Hutchinson tells us that "After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed." He does not say whether he was aware of how his regular haunt would be closed as he arrived from Romford, but seeing as it was the place where he used to crash, the inference is that he would have been well aware of this. He nevertheless made the trek from Romford, and that can perhaps be explained by Hutchinsons situation - if you have no money (and he had no money, he was spent out as per his own admittance to Kelly), then your chances of finding somewhere to spend the night will be much better in familiar surroundings than in unfamiliar ones. So when Hutchinson chose to trek to London with no money in his pocket, it sounds to me like he preferrred to entertain some hope of finding shelter for at least a few morning hours there instead of trying his luck in Romford where he likely had no friends and was not a regular visitor.

            Now, once he arrived in London, walking to his regular joint would not be any idea since he would have known they were closed for the night. However, walking the streets in a neighbourhood where he knew a prostitute friend of his made her rounds would make a whole lot of sense. Running into her could perhaps provide those morning hours under a roof, once she had finished working for the night. When Hutchinson ran into her, she made it clear that she was still looking for business, and so Hutchinson would have to wait for the opportunity to arrive to ask for shelter. And the one and only place he could wait for that opportunity would be right outside her lodgings. Otherwise, he ran the risk of loosing Kelly out of sight. And so he took up his vigil, but the business between Kelly and A man proved to be a lenghty one, and Hutchinson decided that walking the streets to gain a little self-generated warmth was a better idea than to stand still in a chilly doorway as the night drew on.

            If this was what happened - and I donīt see why it would not have been - then how does it make Hutchinson a stalker? The simple answer is that it doesnīt. And of course, the fewest stalkers will go to the police and tell them about their explorations in the stalking business.
            hi fish
            yes I see your point, just dont necessarily agree with it. he would have known his regular place in WC would be closed before he left Romford, no? I could see if he left romford much earlier, but he left to go on a six hour hike at night in the dark?? odd.

            and yes, anyway you cut it-following a woman around after she blows you off-watching her closely talking to another man, following her back to her place and standing around for almost an hour watching her place, even going up to the entrance (if you believe his newspaper story) to see what you can hear-is stalking behavior IMHO.

            Interstingly Lord Orsam has written a brief article (hutchinson reborn)on what might have been Hutchs intentions in his latest ouput on his site here- https://www.orsam.co.uk/news.htm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

              hi fish
              yes I see your point, just dont necessarily agree with it. he would have known his regular place in WC would be closed before he left Romford, no? I could see if he left romford much earlier, but he left to go on a six hour hike at night in the dark?? odd.

              and yes, anyway you cut it-following a woman around after she blows you off-watching her closely talking to another man, following her back to her place and standing around for almost an hour watching her place, even going up to the entrance (if you believe his newspaper story) to see what you can hear-is stalking behavior IMHO.

              Interstingly Lord Orsam has written a brief article (hutchinson reborn)on what might have been Hutchs intentions in his latest ouput on his site here- https://www.orsam.co.uk/news.htm

              Kelly didn't reject Hutchinson- she approached him and he rebuffed her as he had no money.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by harry View Post
                I'm not speculating about Whitechapell, but the capabilities of persons,to do certain things.One only has to watch Olympic walk races to understand my point,and they walk in vest and shorts,not cumbersome and heavy clothing.

                I have no idea of the relevance of what you are saying. Are you saying people are incapable of walking long distances? Are you even suggesting it couldn't be done in the pre motor car era? Honestly? You are not getting into the 19th century mindset. That is a problem. Walking was your only choice. Walking for 4-6 hours to get home- not uncommon or unusual.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  hi fish
                  yes I see your point, just dont necessarily agree with it. he would have known his regular place in WC would be closed before he left Romford, no? I could see if he left romford much earlier, but he left to go on a six hour hike at night in the dark?? odd.

                  and yes, anyway you cut it-following a woman around after she blows you off-watching her closely talking to another man, following her back to her place and standing around for almost an hour watching her place, even going up to the entrance (if you believe his newspaper story) to see what you can hear-is stalking behavior IMHO.

                  Interstingly Lord Orsam has written a brief article (hutchinson reborn)on what might have been Hutchs intentions in his latest ouput on his site here- https://www.orsam.co.uk/news.htm
                  Abby, a stalking behaviour predisposes an obsession with the stalked person. As long as such an obsession cannot be proven, no stalking should be claimed to have taken place, and no case has been proven in any way. Therefore, all we can say is that Hutchinson for whatever reason chose to spend 45 minutes outside Kellys room.

                  It is fine to reason that Hutchinsom MAY have been stalking Kelly, but it is much less fine to claim that it is a proven fact that he did so.

                  here are some definitions of stalking from the net:

                  -the crime of illegally following and watching someone over a period of time

                  -the act of following a person or animal as closely as possible without being seen or heard

                  noun

                  the act or an instance of stalking, or harassing another in an aggressive, often threatening and illegal manner: Stalking is now a crime in many states.

                  adjective

                  of or relating to the act of pursuing or harassing: Stalking laws have alleviated some problems for famous people.

                  And the legal definition:

                  The act or crime of willfully and repeatedly following or harassing another person in circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to fear injury or death especially because of express or implied threatsbroadly : a crime of engaging in a course of conduct directed at a person that serves no legitimate purpose and seriously alarms, annoys, or intimidates that person

                  NOTE: Stalking is often considered to be aggravated when the conduct involved also violates a restraining order protecting the victim.

                  ... none of which necessarily relates to Hutchinson, and some of it definitely doesnīt!
                  Last edited by Fisherman; 07-20-2020, 05:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • If Hutchinson was stalking Kelly, would he not have been seen hanging around Miller's court on other occasions? I don't think he was stalking her but I only base that on the known facts. There's not enough information from the reports to get a handle on his character or his motives. As Stuart Evans pointed out ages ago, police in those days didn't ask enough pertinent questions. https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
                      If Hutchinson was stalking Kelly, would he not have been seen hanging around Miller's court on other occasions? I don't think he was stalking her but I only base that on the known facts. There's not enough information from the reports to get a handle on his character or his motives. As Stuart Evans pointed out ages ago, police in those days didn't ask enough pertinent questions. https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html
                      Yes, stalking is not a one-off (as the saying goes), it is a behaviour that is established over time, and as I pointed out, linked to some form of obsession. I firmly believe that there is no way near anything weighty enough to allow for calling Hutchinson a stalker. That of course does not mean that he cannot have been stalking Kelly, only that there is not enough - by a long stretch - to allow for accepting it as a fact.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                        Interstingly Lord Orsam has written a brief article (hutchinson reborn)on what might have been Hutchs intentions in his latest ouput on his site here- https://www.orsam.co.uk/news.htm
                        Just read the piece. The man involved in watching Kitty Ronan as she entertained her customer robbed another man two months after the Ronan murder. Since we have no parallel to Huthchinson on that score, I think we need to regard him as an innocent man in every respect, going on what little evidence we have.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                          Abby, a stalking behaviour predisposes an obsession with the stalked person. As long as such an obsession cannot be proven, no stalking should be claimed to have taken place, and no case has been proven in any way. Therefore, all we can say is that Hutchinson for whatever reason chose to spend 45 minutes outside Kellys room.

                          It is fine to reason that Hutchinsom MAY have been stalking Kelly, but it is much less fine to claim that it is a proven fact that he did so.

                          here are some definitions of stalking from the net:

                          -the crime of illegally following and watching someone over a period of time

                          -the act of following a person or animal as closely as possible without being seen or heard

                          noun

                          the act or an instance of stalking, or harassing another in an aggressive, often threatening and illegal manner: Stalking is now a crime in many states.

                          adjective

                          of or relating to the act of pursuing or harassing: Stalking laws have alleviated some problems for famous people.

                          And the legal definition:

                          The act or crime of willfully and repeatedly following or harassing another person in circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to fear injury or death especially because of express or implied threatsbroadly : a crime of engaging in a course of conduct directed at a person that serves no legitimate purpose and seriously alarms, annoys, or intimidates that person

                          NOTE: Stalking is often considered to be aggravated when the conduct involved also violates a restraining order protecting the victim.

                          ... none of which necessarily relates to Hutchinson, and some of it definitely doesnīt!
                          hi fish
                          why i said stalking "behavior " and i wasnt talking about the legal definition. but your right he may have(its not a fact of course).

                          Lord Orsam suggests it may not have been Mary he was interested in though and gives an interestingly similar incident. you should check it out.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            hi fish
                            why i said stalking "behavior " and i wasnt talking about the legal definition. but your right he may have(its not a fact of course).

                            Lord Orsam suggests it may not have been Mary he was interested in though and gives an interestingly similar incident. you should check it out.
                            Stalking behavior is stalking. What else would it be, Abby?

                            I just commented on Orsams piece. Youīve got it above!

                            Comment


                            • Sunny Delight,
                              The relevance is,the effect long walks have on persons,who train for days and weeks before an event.No evidence any such training was engaged in by Hutchinson or that it was a regular occurance of his.Yes it is perfectly possible for a person to walk 20 plus miles,Ihave done so a few times,have you?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by harry View Post
                                Sunny Delight,
                                The relevance is,the effect long walks have on persons,who train for days and weeks before an event.No evidence any such training was engaged in by Hutchinson or that it was a regular occurance of his.Yes it is perfectly possible for a person to walk 20 plus miles,Ihave done so a few times,have you?

                                So are you suggesting he lied about walking from Romford and to support this assertion you are claiming that training would need to be undertaken to walk it. Moreso you are saying this at a time before cars and other motorised transport when walking long distances was a fact of life. It makes zero sense.

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