Was Elizabeth Long A Reliable Witness?

[JeffHamm]

Here are the press reports of her address that I can find;

Daily News
3 Church Row

Daily Telegraph
I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder

Echo
Elizabeth Long, Church row, Whitechapel

Irish Times
Elizabeth Long, Church row, Whitechapel

Morning Advertiser
Mary Long, Church row, Whitechapel

St James Gazette
Elizabeth Long, of Church row, Whitechapel

Times
Elizabeth Long, 198, Church-row, Whitechapel

As you can see, the press are unanimous in reporting her address as Church Row.
I can't lay my hands on the Ultimate at the moment....is that where her 32, Church Street address is given?

This is part of the opening post by Angel from the 2004 discussion:


----------------------------------------------
Hi all,

On the eve of the anniversary of Annie Chapman's death I require some assistance, if you please.

To begin�

Elizabeth Long�s residence is listed as follows

Sudgen; Complete History = 32 Church St

Eddleston; JtR An Encyclopaedia = 32 Church St

Evans, Skinner; Sourcebook - Swanson's report 19/10/1888 to Home Office = 32 Church St

Ibid - Inquest extract The Times 20/9/1888 = 198 Church-row
Ibid - Inquest extract The Times 27/9/1888 = Church St

The Daily Telegraph 20/9/1888 = Church-row

Begg; JtR The Definitive History = 32 Church St

I can accept that the papers got it wrong, for the others seem to agree on 32 Church St. Even The Times printed Church St. at a later date when reporting on the inquest.

Can I get definite clarification on her residence.
-----------------------------------------

So the press reports Church Row, but Swanson's Report has Church St (the books aren't contempoarary, and are clearly basing their statements on Swanson's report; and yes, it's found on page 67 of the Ultimate).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Using the information from the 2004 thread, they've identified Church Street as being the street running along the southern border of that big empty area in the NW corner of the map I posted. So, if I have her start from the far west side of that street and over to Brick Lane, etc, it still works out to be a 10 minute walk. I just don't see any name for that street on the map I'm looking at, so can't verify that. I think also that Fournier Street (2 south of Hanbury) was called Church Street, but as they discussed ages ago, she wouldn't be on Hanbury Street if she lived there and was going to the market, which is only a minute or two away as it were.

I haven't been able to work out the building numbers, or even independently confirm that the street along the park (blank space) was called Church Street, but taking even the furthest end as her starting point does not correspond to a 30 minute walk, but one of about 10 minutes at 3.1 mph (average walking speed). If I slow her down to 2.5 mph, which was a patrolman's beat speed, it's more like 13 minutes. All of these, coupled with her starting her journey "about 5:00", seems to point to her mis-remembering the quarter hour chime as the half hour chime, or perhaps I should say is consistent with that idea.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Here are the press reports of her address that I can find;

Daily News
3 Church Row

Daily Telegraph
I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder

Echo
Elizabeth Long, Church row, Whitechapel

Irish Times
Elizabeth Long, Church row, Whitechapel

Morning Advertiser
Mary Long, Church row, Whitechapel

St James Gazette
Elizabeth Long, of Church row, Whitechapel

Times
Elizabeth Long, 198, Church-row, Whitechapel

As you can see, the press are unanimous in reporting her address as Church Row.
I can't lay my hands on the Ultimate at the moment....is that where her 32, Church Street address is given?

[JeffHamm]

Church Row is still there, it's St Matthews row today. Looking at an 1893 map, there's not an abundance of possible routes Long could have taken, and they all join Brick Lane north of the Great Eastern Railway track, which would have her walking right past the Black Eagle Brewery before turning into Hanbury St. Which all tallies up nicely, but there's no way that's a half hour walk. Long says she left at 5am, living on Church Row she could have gotten the time from the church clock. But why would she be sure of both times, when they're not compatible? There is a somewhat convoluted footpath route, but that would take her onto Hanbury St sooner, and further east.
Long is quite sure of leaving at 'around five' and arriving at spitalfields half an hour later. So, if she hears the brewery clock strike half five as she is arriving at Hanbury St, how is she so sure it's half five still when she arrives at work?
I think there really is a case for Long hearing the brewery clock strike the quarter hour.

Yes, I think that too. It seems to me that, when she realizes she saw a couple on her way to the market, that she then has to recollect the details, and if she heard the chimes of the Brewery clock, it's not a big stretch to consider that she simply misrecalls what time the chimes struck. It looks like she should be around #29 in the vicinity of the quarter hour as well, and if that's all that's happened here, then her testimony fits in perfectly with Richardson's and Cadosche's, and her description of JtR, minimal though it may be, is worth considering.

I'm going to see if I can track down her house number, as reported for both Church Row and Church Street, and get some distances to estimate walking times from. I doubt the Church Row estimate will change much, and 10 minutes looks about right (I think it was 9 minutes 42 seconds from where I marked it, but that's just the middle of Church Row, even if she's at the far end we're only getting to about 10 minutes). And I'm using an average walking speed of 3.1 mph, if a woman in Victorian dress, etc, walked a bit slower, it's still not going to get to 30 minutes.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Church Row is still there, it's St Matthews row today. Looking at an 1893 map, there's not an abundance of possible routes Long could have taken, and they all join Brick Lane north of the Great Eastern Railway track, which would have her walking right past the Black Eagle Brewery before turning into Hanbury St. Which all tallies up nicely, but there's no way that's a half hour walk. Long says she left at 5am, living on Church Row she could have gotten the time from the church clock. But why would she be sure of both times, when they're not compatible? There is a somewhat convoluted footpath route, but that would take her onto Hanbury St sooner, and further east.
Long is quite sure of leaving at 'around five' and arriving at spitalfields half an hour later. So, if she hears the brewery clock strike half five as she is arriving at Hanbury St, how is she so sure it's half five still when she arrives at work?
I think there really is a case for Long hearing the brewery clock strike the quarter hour.

[JeffHamm]

Ah, read more of the old thread, and they found Church Row, it's north east by St Mathew's Church. I've marked it off (not right to her door, I just picked the middle of the street), and measured the route at 2679 feet, which would take about 10 minutes at an average walking speed of 3.1 mph. If she left around 5:00 am, then that, to me, makes the 5:15 the more probable chime for her to have heard.

They found a Chruch Street too, but it looked closer I think, so the same would apply.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hmmm, interesting, just reading through that 2004 thread and people have already done the calculations, and from their estimates (and from walking it themselves) it should only have taken her about 13 minutes, so if she left about 5, that does suggest it might have been the quarter hour chime she heard, and misremebers it as the half hour. (I don't know where that Church Street is, but they describe it as 2 streets south of Hanbury, and 13 minutes to cover it seems awfully long to me if that's the case as an average walking speed of 3.1 mph works out to 272.8 feet/min, so 3546 feet, well over half a mile).

On the other hand, as now, there was something strange about her even being on Hanbury Street in the first place, as it's an odd route (apparently) if she's going to the Market from whereever this "two streets south Church Street" is located.

However, also in the old thread a poster (Angel) noted this "Is there another Church St. that I'm missing? Hanbury St is an amalgamation of Browns Lane, Montague St., Preston St. and Church St(Mile End area, not Whitechapel) and this happened on the 31/3/1876 - according to the information here http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...streetsof.html ."

So, if Long's Church Street is what the east end of Hanbury Street used to be called, perhaps it was still called this by the locals? If so, that would take about 8 minutes to walk at an average walking speed of 3.1 miles/hour, again, suggesting the quarter hour chime is what she would have heard.

Also, we're not seeing her say she went to work in this version of her statement, so I'm not sure which version is correct, the one where she says "I left them standing there, and I did not look back, so I cannot say where they went to." or where she says she went on to work.

Regardless, if we can determine where she lived, the distance should allow us to estimate how long it would take her to get to #29, and from that we might be able to determine if she was likely to have heard the 5:15 or 5:30 chimes around then. If either of those are possible, it lends some credibility to her story, and if it was the 5:15 (which so far seems to be the more probable, but that's tentative), then it looks like she's just misremembered that detail. But I would like to sure up this line of inquiry a bit more. I think, if we can solve where her residence was located, then we might be able to sort this out with some degree of confidence.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I've had a poke around the Press Archives found on Casebook, and below is the coverage of Long's testimony as printed in The Daily Telegraph. I like their coverage as it includes the questions put to her, and so forth.

Anyway, there's nothing in here either about her going to work. However, there are some other times mentioned. She indicates she left home about 5:00, and reached the market a few minutes after 5:30. The last time, few minutes past 5:30, could be based upon her estimate of how long it took her to get there from when she heard the Brewer's clock chimes.

I can't find Church Row on a map though? Does anybody know where it is? I would like to get an idea of how far she walked after leaving home at 5:00. I'm thinking this might be a way to evaluate her times. -EDIT: Ah, I found another post from 2004, where it appears her address is 32 Church Street (and Church Row appears to be an error - https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4926/12397.html Interestingly, in that thread they note that 30 minutes to get to #29 seems awfully long, but also, apparently it's an odd route to even be on Hanbury Street if she's going to the market? I have located Church Street either, though, so I can't assess that).

The other thing of note, she indicates she often saw men and women standing there, so it is entirely possible she's seen unrelated-to-the-crime people. The one thing that is hard to reconcile if her times are correct, is that Cadosche leaves home pretty much at that time as well, and he passes the Spitalfields clock at 1:32, so again, a few minutes after the half hour, so it seems hard to understand how they did not see each other. But it wouldn't take much time, a minute even, for there to be enough space between them, and the possibility of different routes taken, combine to make it perhaps not such a big deal after all.

- Jeff

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The Daily Telegraph
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1888

Mrs. Elizabeth Long said: I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder. On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street. I passed 29, Hanbury-street. On the right-hand side, the same side as the house, I saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking. The man's back was turned towards Brick-lane, and the woman's was towards the market. They were standing only a few yards nearer Brick-lane from 29, Hanbury-street. I saw the woman's face. Have seen the deceased in the mortuary, and I am sure the woman that I saw in Hanbury-street was the deceased. I did not see the man's face, but I noticed that he was dark. He was wearing a brown low-crowned felt hat. I think he had on a dark coat, though I am not certain. By the look of him he seemed to me a man over forty years of age. He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased.

Did he look like a working man, or what? - He looked like a foreigner.

Did he look like a dock labourer, or a workman, or what? - I should say he looked like what I should call shabby-genteel.

Were they talking loudly? - They were talking pretty loudly. I overheard him say to her "Will you?" and she replied, "Yes." That is all I heard, and I heard this as I passed. I left them standing there, and I did not look back, so I cannot say where they went to.

Did they appear to be sober? - I saw nothing to indicate that either of them was the worse for drink.

Was it not an unusual thing to see a man and a woman standing there talking? - Oh no. I see lots of them standing there in the morning.

At that hour of the day? - Yes; that is why I did not take much notice of them.

You are certain about the time? - Quite.

What time did you leave home? - I got out about five o'clock, and I reached the Spitalfields Market a few minutes after half-past five.
The Foreman of the jury: What brewer's clock did you hear strike half-past five? - The brewer's in Brick-lane.


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[JeffHamm]

It is! But not obvious. When she is asked if she saw where the couple went, several papers have her saying this;

"Did you see where they went to? - Oh no, sir! I left them standing and went to my work."

Ah, ok. I'll have to hunt those down. This is the sort of thing that, ideally, one would want to question her further on, like what time was she supposed to start work? If her start time was 5:30, then she was late getting to work, which would be something she would probably remember specifically. And if she then remembered she wasn't late, that would suggest she misremembered the chime and it was probaby 5:15. But if she remembered being late that day, it would fit her testimony, and would probably indicate she saw two people unrelated to the crime and misidentified Annie at the morgue or Cadosche's times are wrong, which seems unlikely as his reported time at the clock is pretty precise (1:32), or the Brewer's Clock and Spitalfield's clock were out of sync, with the Brewer's running fast by some amount (another thing I wish had been checked).

Of course, if her work started at 5:45, or 6:00, and she was early, which seems probable as she doesn't seem to indicate she was in a rush to get there in any way (just kept walking along, she didn't say "and I paid little attention because I was late..." type thing), then that too probably points to her time being accurate as it would seem odd for her to get there that much earlier, as implied by suggesting she may have heard the 5:15 chime.

Up until now I've been working from the assumption she was going shopping because of how she states it in her testimony. I've generally gone with those, and avoid the newspapers, as the papers do seem to contradict each other, and the inquest statements, quite frequently, but usually on more dramatic points.

- Jeff

[harry]

Regardless of whether she was out shopping or going to work,Lomg's testimony indicates it was a regular occurance of her being on the streets at that time.So yes,to me,it appears that the mention of time by her,also indicates that time was a factor she was conscious of when out.

[Joshua Rogan]

Yah, that's what I'm wondering, if it's a detail in a newspaper somewhere.

It is! But not obvious. When she is asked if she saw where the couple went, several papers have her saying this;

"Did you see where they went to? - Oh no, sir! I left them standing and went to my work."

[JeffHamm]

To be honest Jeff I’d assumed that she was going to work too but I can’t see work mentioned anywhere unless it’s in one of the newspaper reports?

Yah, that's what I'm wondering, if it's a detail in a newspaper somewhere. Her inquest testimony has never read to me like she was going to work actually, as the phrase "going to the market" rather than "going to work" sounds like someone describing going to the market with the purchasing of things being implied as a manifestly obvious activity that one does at markets. That's part of the reason I'm comfortable with the possibility that she has misremembered the chime.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

That's something I've mused over myself. Other witnesses state they are going to work or late for work and this gives credence to their statements (Robert Paul, Fisherman!). But since we don't know why Long was going that way it adds massive fallibility to her statement. Not to suggest in any way she was being dishonest, but as you state, if she didn't work at the market, can we say this was a regular route or that she would have reason to accurately note the time?

Exactly. If she was going shopping, her noting of the time would be much more prone to misremembering than if she was on her way to work and had to be there are a particular time. Her statement that she was "going to the market", reads to me like she's going shopping not on her way to work. As you note, witnesses who were going to work would describe themselves as such because that is what they were doing, it was the purpose for being out in the first place. Her description sounds more like her purpose was shopping rather than going to work. But I could very well have missed a report somewhere where she did say she was going to work.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Was Long going to work at the market? Was just looking at her testimony in "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion" and it just says she was going to the market. If she was going shopping and not to work her awareness of the time would be quite different. It could be the information is found elsewhere and she was going to work (I don't know), so just wondering where it might be found?

- Jeff

That's something I've mused over myself. Other witnesses state they are going to work or late for work and this gives credence to their statements (Robert Paul, Fisherman!). But since we don't know why Long was going that way it adds massive fallibility to her statement. Not to suggest in any way she was being dishonest, but as you state, if she didn't work at the market, can we say this was a regular route or that she would have reason to accurately note the time?

[Herlock Sholmes]

To be honest Jeff I’d assumed that she was going to work too but I can’t see work mentioned anywhere unless it’s in one of the newspaper reports?