Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

swanson was clueless. any boots on the ground cop will tell you the chances of someone being assaulted and then killed in two separate unrelated incidents one right after the other is practically zilch. everything points to BS man killed her and was the ripper.

Just a quick point, there was the case in the West Midlands of the young girl who was raped, ran to a taxi for help and was raped again. Don't have the exact article to hand, but shows even today **** people are everywhere. Not to take from your original point, the odds of being attacked then murdered are slim.

[Joshua Rogan]

Almost all Ripperologists live in a self built house of cards and really hate it when someone starts a leaf blower nearby. Almost every preconception about these cases is without any proof at all, so perhaps yourself and Sam and others might remember that when someone suggests something based on known evidence that has about as much factual backing as a mythical Ripper has.

Careful Michael, you're beginning to sound a lot like Trevor.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, there are just way too many red flags to think the B.S. man was her killer. And Swanson's report allows for that as well.

c.d.

swanson was clueless. any boots on the ground cop will tell you the chances of someone being assaulted and then killed in two separate unrelated incidents one right after the other is practically zilch. and there are zero red flags--everything points to BS man killed her and was the ripper.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I agree with you about BS Man. The difficulty I have is why would she remain in the same location after being assaulted, particularly during the Ripper scare? If that's what happened, doesn't it tend to suggest that she was meeting someone, such as a club member, pointing towards a domestic murder? And, of course, this scenario would also result in the substantial coincidences of Stride being attacked in the same location, by two different assailants, in a matter of a few minutes.

A fair point. If she was soliciting, would she stay in the exact spot after being roughed up by a stranger? Or, if she was meeting someone,might she have shrugged off a random attack by someone who thought she was available for business and got snubbed? Of course, doesn't answer who killed her.

[Abby Normal]

I think Scwartz probably lied. His evidence is incompatible with the cachous argument, he wasn't subsequently utilized in the investigation, his timings don't really make sense, and I seriously doubt clumsy BS Man was JtR.

Hi John

I think Scwartz probably lied.

except there absolutely no evidence he did.

His evidence is incompatible with the cachous argument

cashooooooo! no its not-any modern forensics expert can tell you people die, suffer horrible violent deaths, etc, still clutching something in their hand. happens all the time.
and his evidence is corroborated by all the other witnesses that saw a suspect with a peaked cap.

he wasn't subsequently utilized in the investigation

what do you mean? of course he was he was questioned by police. if your talking about not being at the inquest-so what? we have no idea why. he may have simply avoided it and/or didn't want to go. although are many other reasons too.
and he may have been the Koz ID witness, although I think that probably was Lawende.

his timings don't really make sense,

sure they do-they make perfect sense. what he witnessed could have only taken a couple of minutes-and at a time that fits with the other viable witness stories. and minutes before she was actually, indeed, found murdered feet away.

and I seriously doubt clumsy BS Man was JtR

unless you think the ripper was some sort of robot or phantom lol. he was human, prone to mistakes and moods. he probably just lost his temper because Stride was not going easily where he wanted to.

[John G]

Yes, there are just way too many red flags to think the B.S. man was her killer. And Swanson's report allows for that as well.

c.d.

I agree with you about BS Man. The difficulty I have is why would she remain in the same location after being assaulted, particularly during the Ripper scare? If that's what happened, doesn't it tend to suggest that she was meeting someone, such as a club member, pointing towards a domestic murder? And, of course, this scenario would also result in the substantial coincidences of Stride being attacked in the same location, by two different assailants, in a matter of a few minutes.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.,

That, of course, is possible. Are you suggesting Stride wasn't murdered by BS Man?

Yes, there are just way too many red flags to think the B.S. man was her killer. And Swanson's report allows for that as well.

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

hi DK

That's even crazier than them coming up with a cover up conspiracy because one of the members were involved!

no I think IF they would have done a conspiracy they would have picked someone who would have been able to make it stone cold clear, which it obviously wasn't as many of the police initially thought different things about who yelled what and to whom.



there was something specific-what was on top of BS mans head-a peaked cap. just like the other witnesses saw. and besides lawende got a front side look, schwarts trailed behind BS man and only got a passing glimpse as he skidaddled on by. a hanky around someones neck, more than likely obscured by a jacket could have been easily missed.

Why is it crazy if Schwartz saw something and it was embellished it diverts attention from the club. What would be crazy is if the club knew who the murderer was but refused to say - Jewish Chronicle - Jewish Chronicle (U.K.)
Friday, 12 October 1888
There are not wanting signs of a deliberate attempt to connect the Jews with the Whitechapel murders. A butcher writes to a contemporary to suggest that the character of the incisions is such that they were made by a butcher, and thence he jumps to the conclusion that it was a Jewish butcher
Jewish Chronicle 5 Oct
Many English and Irish work people at the East End are inflamed against the immigrant Jews by the competition for work and for houses, by the stories of the sweaters and the sweated. If these illogical and ignorant minds should come to believe in the report heedlessly spread by a writer who is obviously not quite just nor well-informed himself, the result might be terrible.

Schwartz trailed behind BS man - yet he still described his moustache.

Regards Darryl

[c.d.]

Almost all Ripperologists live in a self built house of cards and really hate it when someone starts a leaf blower nearby. Almost every preconception about these cases is without any proof at all, so perhaps yourself and Sam and others might remember that when someone suggests something based on known evidence that has about as much factual backing as a mythical Ripper has.

Hello Michael,

You have no idea how much the rest of us enjoy being lectured by you. Thanks for keeping us on the straight and narrow. So can we assume that you have 100% metaphysical proof for every one of your theories and beliefs or are you immune from having to provide that?

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John,

I think his evidence is completely in line with the cachous argument seeing as how he only saw a woman being pushed not murdered.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

That, of course, is possible. Are you suggesting Stride wasn't murdered by BS Man?

[c.d.]

I think Scwartz probably lied. His evidence is incompatible with the cachous argument, he wasn't subsequently utilized in the investigation, his timings don't really make sense, and I seriously doubt clumsy BS Man was JtR.

Hello John,

I think his evidence is completely in line with the cachous argument seeing as how he only saw a woman being pushed not murdered.

c.d.

[John G]

I think Scwartz probably lied. His evidence is incompatible with the cachous argument, he wasn't subsequently utilized in the investigation, his timings don't really make sense, and I seriously doubt clumsy BS Man was JtR.

[Michael W Richards]

Hmmmm.
So, you think that a club full of anarchist socialist jews told a ****-and-bull story to the police (who were apparently chomping at the bit to close the place down), they didn't believe a word of it, yet somehow it still managed to deflect suspicion away from the club?
Sounds rather unlikely.

One needs proof doesn't one? Like proof there was a Jack the Ripper at all, for example? Or proof that Kates claim about her claiming the reward for the killer didn't involve her trying to sell that for more money to someone else, including said bad guy? Proof that victims were soliciting before just assuming so anyway? Proof that serial mutilators would just cut a victim once?

Almost all Ripperologists live in a self built house of cards and really hate it when someone starts a leaf blower nearby. Almost every preconception about these cases is without any proof at all, so perhaps yourself and Sam and others might remember that when someone suggests something based on known evidence that has about as much factual backing as a mythical Ripper has.

[Sam Flynn]

So, you think that a club full of anarchist socialist jews told a ****-and-bull story to the police (who were apparently chomping at the bit to close the place down), they didn't believe a word of it, yet somehow it still managed to deflect suspicion away from the club?

Meanwhile, in Mitre Square, yet another unlikely plot involving the blackmail and 'orrible murder of Catherine Eddowes was about to reach its deadly climax

[Joshua Rogan]

If you re-read what I said it could have been a reference to another man BSM was working with, indicating the arrival of a "Lipski" in the form of Schwartz. Lets remember that Israel said nothing directly to anyone official, he said what he said to an interpreter..who was likely Woolf, an acquaintance,..that translation may or may not have been a literal representation of Israels. The anti Jew sentiments were most visible in the areas where Jews resided, worked, attended meetings. The Lipksi remark to me is clearly directed at the only obviously Jewish person of the 3 people that Israels statement puts there, is intended as an insult, and is therefore more indicative of a local gentile with what were anti-Semitic attitudes. Just like the message at the Model Homes entrance.

That's very true....BSM might have been indicating the arrival of Schwartz by shouting "Lipski" to a companion. But that's beside the point. Schwartz' story doesn't paint BSM as a gentile, only Abberline's interpretation of it does that. IF the translator for Schwartz' police interview was indeed Wess, it makes it all the more unbelievable that Wess didn't make the anti-semitic angle explicit. Israel could have been talking about the weather or what he had for breakfast for all the police would know, and all the info implying that the attacker was a gentile could have been supplied directly by Wess. Yet not even when Abberline questions Schwartz closely about who the shout was directed at do either of them concede it might have been aimed at Schwartz himself.

A bunch of anarchist socialist Jews with a dead woman in their passageway would be very relieved to hear of an anti-Semitic gentile assaulting the murder victim off their property just before she is killed, the extremely fortuitous nature of that is enough to question its veracity.

Yes, you'd have thought they'd be falling over themselves to agree with Abberline's suggestion that "Lipski" was an anti-semitic slur....but strangely, they didn't.

Oh yeah,....and the simple fact that none of Israel Schwartz's statement is in any way shape or form associated with the hearing into how Liz Stride died. An assault on the victim within minutes of her being killed.. how can that not be relevant to the question of how she died?

I shouldn't have to tell you how. Its obvious. His story didn't pan out.

Hmmmm.
So, you think that a club full of anarchist socialist jews told a ****-and-bull story to the police (who were apparently chomping at the bit to close the place down), they didn't believe a word of it, yet somehow it still managed to deflect suspicion away from the club?
Sounds rather unlikely.