Was Albert Cadosch A Reliable Witness?

[JeffHamm]

My view is that Cadosch reports voices in the vicinity of the crime, and a noise against the fence where the crime occurred. His testimony is also consistent with an independent witness who testifies the crime had not occurred roughly 45 minutes earlier. Cadosch's testimony does not appear embellished with fanciful details, which, given what he reports was not considered extraordinary at the time, he would have heard these things, one wouldn't expect much detail to be remembered later. Therefore, as a witness, he appears to be entirely reliable in the sense that he appears to be genuinely reporting something he believes to be true. The accuracy of the details (what words he heard, the location of origin of the sounds, etc), could be questioned and would require independent lines of evidence to verify them. While we can't go back in time to seek out those independent lines of evidence, as noted above, nothing we do have contradicts them (the details of the crime itself are consistent with what he reports - there must have been two people so conversations could be ongoing, the crime scene is next to the fence and close enough that some aspect of the crime could easily result in something, either Annie or JtR, making contact with it, and another witness testifies the crime had not occurred 45 minutes earlier). His time for the events conflicts with Long's, but only by minutes, and he doesn't recall seeing a couple outside #29 when he left for work. That, to me, leans towards Long's recall of the time being incorrect as she does identify Annie as the woman she saw (which would make a 2nd witness confirming the murder hadn't happened earlier). However, this last bit could also be explained as Long seeing a different couple, who arrived after Cadosh went to work and her identification of Annie was erroneous (as in Stride's case). But even if we leave out Long's testimony, we have Richardson's visit to the backyard that gives us the state of the location 45 minutes or so prior to Cadosch. The medical evidence, such as it is, does not exclude the time for the murder corresponding to Cadosch's testimony, though as we know, the medical evidence doesn't exclude quite a wide range of times.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good summing up Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

His testimony is also consistent with an independent witness who testifies the crime had not occurred roughly 45 minutes earlier.

Is this witness Long?

[The Baron]

Is this witness Long?

In only 4 words Nelson ruined a long long post!

Thats what makes the difference.


[who testifies the crime had not occurred roughly 45 minutes earlier.] ??

What a twist of facts...



The Baron

[JeffHamm]

Is this witness Long?

I was referring to Richardson, who viewed the area 45 minutes ago (though some argue he might not have seen her body, that is so improbable that I see it as an invalid line of reasoning, clearly those who argue for it do not view it as such). Long's testimony is also consistent with the murder not happening before Richardson's visit as well, but the estimates of time place her sighting after Cadosh's "hearings". But, the two times are close enough, and time estimation is not highly reliable, that either one of them could have been wrong. Since Long states she based her time on hearing the church chimes, I can imagine that she has misremembered the 5:15 chime as the 5:30 chime, and if something like that happened, then her and Cadosch's testimony's line up extremely well. Cadosch does say he spotted the time (5:32) on the Spitlefield's Clock after he left for work, and that would place his leaving around 5:30, which is when Long states she and the couple are outside #29, but Cadosch testifies he didn't notice them (or he doesn't remember seeing them - again, it is entirely possible Long saw two unrelated people, though she did identify Annie in the mortuary as the woman she saw).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

In only 4 words Nelson ruined a long long post!

Thats what makes the difference.


[who testifies the crime had not occurred roughly 45 minutes earlier.] ??

What a twist of facts...



The Baron

No, it was a fair question, I was a bit unclear. Richardson's testimony about his visit to check the basement door is roughly 45 minutes prior to the times given by Cadosch (might be closer to 35 or 40, I've not got the testified times in front of me). Richardson is quite sure there was no body, and so no murder, at that time.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

In keeping with the original post, Cadosch claims to have heard something shortly before leaving for work at half past five. If Annie was already dead as per Phillips' TOD it does beg the question what was he hearing? But since Cadosch doesn't speculate, implicate others or deflect from his own actions there really is little reason to question his sincerity.
If we are also to take what Richardson said at inquest, ie, there was no body at the time he sat on the steps that does lend credence to Cadosch in my opinion. There is the possibility that the body was lying there and he heard someone other than the killer who to date has never come to light, but really if Richardson gives the all clear shortly before 5, Cadosch hears something at 5.30 and the body is found soon after then it seems reasonable that Cadosch heard the killer or someone who must have known a body was there but never came forward. Theories abound as to who that might have been, but Cadosch seems pretty safe as a witness.

[JeffHamm]

In keeping with the original post, Cadosch claims to have heard something shortly before leaving for work at half past five. If Annie was already dead as per Phillips' TOD it does beg the question what was he hearing? But since Cadosch doesn't speculate, implicate others or deflect from his own actions there really is little reason to question his sincerity.
If we are also to take what Richardson said at inquest, ie, there was no body at the time he sat on the steps that does lend credence to Cadosch in my opinion. There is the possibility that the body was lying there and he heard someone other than the killer who to date has never come to light, but really if Richardson gives the all clear shortly before 5, Cadosch hears something at 5.30 and the body is found soon after then it seems reasonable that Cadosch heard the killer or someone who must have known a body was there but never came forward. Theories abound as to who that might have been, but Cadosch seems pretty safe as a witness.

Yes, that's how it looks to me too. Cadosch's testimony comes across as genuine, and Richardson's testimony rules out a murder around 4:50 ish I believe he said. It seems unlikely that the murder could occur between 4:50 and 5:30, for the killer to leave, and then for another two people to enter the yard, not arouse suspicion in Cadosh (i.e. a big yell of no, or scream, etc), and remain there for 3 or 4 minutes while Cadosch is in the house, only to bump the fence upon Cadosch's 2nd vist. Then those two mystery people vanish without a trace before the body is eventually discovered.

Long's testimony is a bit out of sync, but a bit of error in estimated times is hardly sufficient to discount it entirely, particularly coupled with her identification of Annie. But of the 3, hers would be the one to attach the most caution to.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

With regard to timings, personally I think people like Robert Paul, Cadosch and Richardson are perhaps a little more credible because they had to be at work on time so might reasonably be expected to be aware of the time. Particularly Paul. No one is more acutely aware of the time than a person late for work.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, that's how it looks to me too. Cadosch's testimony comes across as genuine, and Richardson's testimony rules out a murder around 4:50 ish I believe he said. It seems unlikely that the murder could occur between 4:50 and 5:30, for the killer to leave, and then for another two people to enter the yard, not arouse suspicion in Cadosh (i.e. a big yell of no, or scream, etc), and remain there for 3 or 4 minutes while Cadosch is in the house, only to bump the fence upon Cadosch's 2nd vist. Then those two mystery people vanish without a trace before the body is eventually discovered.

Long's testimony is a bit out of sync, but a bit of error in estimated times is hardly sufficient to discount it entirely, particularly coupled with her identification of Annie. But of the 3, hers would be the one to attach the most caution to.

- Jeff

That’s how I see it Jeff. I’ll be doing a thread on Richardson next followed by Long.

Perhaps one of the things that causes a problem for many when looking to reconcile Cadosch and Long is the thought of either one of them being as much as 15 minutes out in their timing? We all know that timings can be out due to the lack of watches and clocks. Watches and clocks can also be slightly fast or slightly slow and people, when looking back, can be wrong. It’s not at all impossible for a 14 or 15 minute error but we don’t really need that much here as we only need both Cadosch and Long to have been 7 or 8 minutes out and they match up. Long sees Annie at around 5.26. Cadosch heard the ‘no’ at around 5.27 then he hears the noise around 5.31 then leaves for work at around 5.32. It’s hardly a leap of faith imo. Of course Annie could have been mistaken and seen another couple but I think it likelier that she did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone know how Cadosch got up for work? Was he knocked up by a Constable? If so, all it would have taken would have been the Constable having an issue or two occurring on his round that he had to deal with to have made him 5 minutes later than normal.

[FISHY1118]

Albert Cadosch [Cadoche] deposed: I live at 27, Hanbury-street, and am a carpenter. 27 is next door to 29, Hanbury-street. On Saturday, Sept. 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly.
The Coroner: Did you look to see what it was? - No.
[Coroner] Had you heard any noise while you were at the end of your yard? - No.
[Coroner] Any rustling of clothes? - No. I then went into the house, and from there into the street to go to my work. It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church.
[Coroner] Do you ever hear people in these yards? - Now and then, but not often.
By a Juryman: I informed the police the same night after I returned from my work.
The Foreman: What height are the palings? - About 5 ft. 6 in. to 6 ft. high.
[Coroner] And you had not the curiosity to look over? - No, I had not.
[Coroner] It is not usual to hear thumps against the palings? - They are packing-case makers, and now and then there is a great case goes up against the palings. I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over.
The Foreman of the Jury: It's a pity you did not.
By the Coroner. - I did not see any man and woman in the street when I went out.

I got up at about quarter past five

It was about twenty past five when he went into the yard.

Returned 3 or 4 mins later [ allowing 2 mins to use the w,c] 5.26

It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church

Im anyone so i guess i can give my thoughts

These are the only times Albert Codosch mentions in his under oath inquest testimony.

To try and change what is already known about Codoschs times and the Chapman murder BY SUGGESTING SOME OTHER TIMES BASED ON what ifs and faulty clocks and policeman waking up witnesses is a pointless exercise ... in my opinion

Best to stick to the inquest evidence and not use what ifs to create a different narrative than whats already known

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s not a case of changing anything Fishy. I’ve accepted that Mrs Long might have been mistaken in that she could have seen two different people. But if we can accept that there could have been an error in identification why is it such an issue to suggest that there ‘might’ have been an error in timing? I’m not saying that there definitely was an error just that it’s a possibility. We can’t simply cherry-pick in that she could have been wrong in her identification but she was cast-iron correct in her timing. We have to be fair. Errors can occur; especially at a time when many people didn’t own watches or clocks. We know that neither Long or Cadosch owned watches as they spoke or Brewery and Church clocks. And so, if Cadosch didn’t own a watch how did he know the exact time that he got up? I think that it’s a valid question to ask how Cadosch got up for work on time? As we all know many people were knocked up by a Constable it’s not unreasonable to ask the question. If he did rely on a knock-up (and again, I’m not saying that he did, just that it’s a reasonable possibility) then how could he have been certain of the exact time? Constables had timed beats of course but they also had to deal with issues on their rounds which could put them behind by a few minutes.

None of this is an invention Fishy. I haven’t tried to state anything as fact (apart from the fact that we know that Cadosch and Long didn’t have watches) All I’m doing is stating reasonable possibilities. We cannot state for a fact that Cadosch and Long were exact in their timings. They might have been. But it’s possible that they weren’t.

Ill throw this post out there. Does anyone think that my post is unreasonable or, in anyway, dishonest?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

We don't know, knocker uppers were common but you'd think if that's how he got up it would be mentioned. What a potential witness!
I suppose we have to assume that if Cadosch was not in the habit of being late for work, then he probably gets up at the same time. The inquests never questioned his time keeping so presumably it's about right, as much as can be given the lack of personal time pieces.

[Herlock Sholmes]

True enough Al. He obviously got to work on time every day so I wouldn’t suggest that he was way out in his timing. I don’t think that 7 or 8 minutes would have been impossible though. We can never know of course.