Long v Cadosch. Seeing vs Hearing.

[FISHY1118]

The big question is did Long really see Chapman, and did Cadosch really hear jack the ripper ? 50/50. .... Cadosch.

1Did you hear a voice say . ''no'' .... yes

2 Were you sure it came from number 29 .... no

3 Could it have come from 25.... yes

4 Did you hear sort of fall against the fence ... yes

5 Did you look over to see what it was ... no

It is not usual to hear thumps against the palings? -[[cadosch] They are packing-case makers, and now and then there is a great case goes up against the palings.

More then happy for anyone to say its still possible that jack the ripper was in the yard at 29 Hanbury BETWEEN 5.15 AND 5.30 st according to Codosch , as long as the same applies for jack not being in the yard at 29 Hanbury st according to Cadosch.

Mrs Long ?

[Bridewell]

Hi, Fishy. Welcome to Casebook. For the incident heard by Cadosch to be of any relevance Mrs Long/Darrell/Durrell's timing (assuming that Chapman was the woman she saw) would have to be wrong. This is what the coroner concluded. The alternative is that Cadosch made the whole thing up. Something is amiss to my mind because the fence was only 5ft or 5ft 6 inches tall and Cadosch would have had to go down steps to enter the yard. His sons were only about 5ft 4 inches tall so he was probably quite a short man but I think he would still have seen anyone in the yard had they been there. Cadosch is a fascinating character and certainly not above deceit when it suited his purpose.

[packers stem]

. Something is amiss to my mind because the fence was only 5ft or 5ft 6 inches tall and Cadosch would have had to go down steps to enter the yard. His sons were only about 5ft 4 inches tall so he was probably quite a short man but I think he would still have seen anyone in the yard .

Evening Guys
Quite so .
A point rarely discussed especially seeing as he passed through the doorway four times .
The whole timeline doesn't ring true of a murder scene .

Firstly Cadosch goes out through the door to use the toilet .We don't know whether he stood there for 30 seconds or sat there for a few minutes .He heard nothing in this time .
Hears nothing walking back other than 'no' ,
we don't know where from but when pushed he tended to go with 29.This was as he was going through the door , you would think instinct would cause him to turn around and glance .
A few minutes later he goes out again , again as he reached the top step going through the door he sees nothing ....

At this point let's remember it was broad daylight by this time .

As he walks , nothing .
In the toilet again , nothing .

Walking back ,nothing until something touches the fence .

No words , no struggle
No kicking out , muffled cry ..... nothing .
He was a few feet away from where people believe Chapman was being strangled if the thud was her falling against the fence .

The other conundrum is that at this point around five minutes have elapsed between the 'no' and the thud .
No talking heard , rustling
Are we to presume they stood there gazing into each others eyes and that our super smart elusive killer was happily standing there as this door at 27 swinging open rather frequently with someone walking up and down the yard .
Wouldn't it have spooked him somewhat ?

[Wickerman]

It might be difficult to hold a conversation when one party has a garrotte pulled tight around her neck.

[Wickerman]

The big question is did Long really see Chapman,....

Mrs Long did claim to recognise the body as the woman she saw.

More then happy for anyone to say its still possible that jack the ripper was in the yard at 29 Hanbury BETWEEN 5.15 AND 5.30 st according to Codosch , as long as the same applies for jack not being in the yard at 29 Hanbury st according to Cadosch.

I think the crux of the problem is right there in the inquest testimony.

It was about 5:30. She was certain of the time, as the brewers' clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street.
Times.

I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street.
Daily Telegraph

The difference is only minutes, but was she passing No.29 as the Brewers clock struck 5:30, or was she still in Brick Lane when she heard the clock?

[FISHY1118]

Thank you Brideswell ,appreciate your comment, you dead right about the fence and its more relevant then people think. As the illustration of the newspaper shows . . add the comment about the height with and easy in which someone might leap over it, and you have a real problem. Also if you look at James Mason standing on the top step of number 29 in the video '' The London Nobody Knows''[ 38.00 min in] then its not to hard to to see that Codosch would also have been in the same position on his step when he heard the ''no'' . He would almost certainly have been able to see right into the yard of 29, in the daylight i might add ,. if a murder was committed in that yard between 5.15 and 5.30 with Codosch walking passed on 4 occasions im a monkeys uncle.



The backyard of 29 Hanbury Street from a contemporary newspaper illustration




The backyard of 29 Hanbury Street from a contemporary newspaper illustation, showing the precarious nature of the fence


So the reports give a length for the passage of about 20 to 25 ft long. According to the Goad’s and OS maps the depth of the building of No. 29 and No. 27 was about 30 ft.

A more grim account of the house was given as follows:

There stood the dingy house in the back yard of which the crime took place, the ditto of its dingy neighbours. A mangling house, with the yellow paint peeling off its wall like skin disease, flanks it on one side; an ordinary dwelling house on the other. To reach the back yard of No 29, you must traverse the “hall” and passage of the house; there is no back entry, for, as already said, the houses flank each other closely, leaving no intervening space. On traversing the passage, you reach a back door, from which three steps lead downward—that is, to the level of the ugly, little, stony, slimy back yard. This back yard is separated from the next neighbour’s by a paling so low that one may vault over it with the utmost ease. In the narrow level space between the steps and the paling was found the murdered body.10


nice post packers i too can see the problem .

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Fishy

There stood the dingy house in the back yard of which the crime took place, the ditto of its dingy neighbours. A mangling house, with the yellow paint peeling off its wall like skin disease, flanks it on one side; an ordinary dwelling house on the other. To reach the back yard of No 29, you must traverse the “hall” and passage of the house; there is no back entry, for, as already said, the houses flank each other closely, leaving no intervening space. On traversing the passage, you reach a back door, from which three steps lead downward—that is, to the level of the ugly, little, stony, slimy back yard. This back yard is separated from the next neighbour’s by a paling so low that one may vault over it with the utmost ease. In the narrow level space between the steps and the paling was found the murdered body.10

Alternatively:

Coroner: Will you describe the yard?

Witness: It is a large yard. Facing the door, on the opposite side, on my left as I was standing, there is a shed, in which Mrs. Richardson keeps her wood. In the right-hand corner there is a closet. The yard is separated from the next premises on both sides by close wooden fencing, about 5 ft. 6 in. high…

Would you rather we trust the inquest evidence from John Davis, or a speculative article in the Daily News...or would you rather we simply read the complete Casebook dissertation by Gavin Bromley, from which you've simply lifted your quotation, together with the annotation 10 which led to a footnote?

Cheers

Dave

[FISHY1118]

Isnt it funny when i use the official inquest to make a point, here is the standard reply .''oh we can be sure they were telling the truth, or they might be mistaken or,the clocks might be wrong'' and it goes on and on. .so please dont give me that . .Now in John Davis case he may well be mistaken, he may well not be. however given we have two different illustration of a very short fence and a description of that fence which matches the illustration, im more than happy to stand by the above post .

you should also be aware once cadosch was standing on his top step going through the door , he heard the word ''NO'', how much higher would he be over 5/6 given his own height .??? keep in mind now he came out the door twice and came back twice the whole time a murder was being committed. But didnt hear[ except for the ''no'' which he wasnt sure came from 29] or see anything, and he was only six 7/8 feet away . only in the twilight zone maybe.

[Cogidubnus]

Well if you're not concerned about lifting illustrations, plans and quotations verbatim from somebody else's work, who am I to complain...

Standing on the top step ie at house level, your feet would probably be 3 feet above garden level, but you'd likely have your view immediate right somewhat restricted by the door frame, and depending which way the door is hung, by the door...so assuming you loiter on the first step out, the middle step, (a fairly big assume if you're unwell and have a really pressing need to get to the wc) then you're probably 2 feet above garden level...so if you're 5 feet 4" tall, allowing say five inches for the difference between your height and "eye level", then your eye level is just under 7 feet off the ground...however, as the steps are likely (as is the case next door) at least three feet from the fence, (and you'd presumably be standing in the centre of the step, not off to one side), you're about 3 feet six inches from a fence which is which is approximately five feet to 5 feet 6 inches high. Therefore, the angle subtended between your eyes and the fence-top would prevent you seeing anything or anyone remotely close to the fence, unless they're very tall or standing bolt upright. That is elementary geometry, which even in my dotage I do vaguely recall...

When you reach ground level, it's doubtful if your line of sight will enable you to see into next door's yard...particularly as you get further down towards the WC...again elementary geometry...

On Cadosche's first visit to the yard he didn't claim to hear anything, until he'd used the wc and was returning to the house...at which he heard voices, presumably whilst he was facing the house and as he mounted the steps, he presumably didn't feel curious enough to look back down the yard...why should he?

On Cadosche's second visit to the yard, he heard a sound as if something fell against the fence.."something seemed suddenly to touch the fence"...we don't know if this was outbound from the house, or inbound...he only had the opportunity to look over the fence fleetingly whilst on his way to the wc...again I suspect his mind was on other matters...all the rest of the way to the wc, the fence obscured his line of sight...on his way back he was again presumably facing away from the yard...noises from next door being commonplace, why should he look back from the steps? As he subsequently passed Spitalfield Church at 0532 and noticed that time , it's clear he was concerned about getting to work on time, not nosing about next door's yard...

I don't see any signs of the twilight zone...

Dave

[Herlock Sholmes]

Have you ever heard such desperate, dishonest shoehorning twaddle simply to accommodate an utterly discredited theory. I’m sick of reading conspiracy theorist crap like this trying to pass for reason.

Arent there conspiracy theorist forums you can go on and waffle about the Illuminati and Roslyn Chapel?

Jack The Ripper was a serial killer. End of. There isn’t a single, solitary, minutely remote chance of people carrying mutilated corpses around Whitechapel and dumping them in yards and squares. Grow up!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well if you're not concerned about lifting illustrations, plans and quotations verbatim from somebody else's work, who am I to complain...

Standing on the top step ie at house level, your feet would probably be 3 feet above garden level, but you'd likely have your view immediate right somewhat restricted by the door frame, and depending which way the door is hung, by the door...so assuming you loiter on the first step out, the middle step, (a fairly big assume if you're unwell and have a really pressing need to get to the wc) then you're probably 2 feet above garden level...so if you're 5 feet 4" tall, allowing say five inches for the difference between your height and "eye level", then your eye level is just under 7 feet off the ground...however, as the steps are likely (as is the case next door) at least three feet from the fence, (and you'd presumably be standing in the centre of the step, not off to one side), you're about 3 feet six inches from a fence which is which is approximately five feet to 5 feet 6 inches high. Therefore, the angle subtended between your eyes and the fence-top would prevent you seeing anything or anyone remotely close to the fence, unless they're very tall or standing bolt upright. That is elementary geometry, which even in my dotage I do vaguely recall...

When you reach ground level, it's doubtful if your line of sight will enable you to see into next door's yard...particularly as you get further down towards the WC...again elementary geometry...

On Cadosche's first visit to the yard he didn't claim to hear anything, until he'd used the wc and was returning to the house...at which he heard voices, presumably whilst he was facing the house and as he mounted the steps, he presumably didn't feel curious enough to look back down the yard...why should he?

On Cadosche's second visit to the yard, he heard a sound as if something fell against the fence.."something seemed suddenly to touch the fence"...we don't know if this was outbound from the house, or inbound...he only had the opportunity to look over the fence fleetingly whilst on his way to the wc...again I suspect his mind was on other matters...all the rest of the way to the wc, the fence obscured his line of sight...on his way back he was again presumably facing away from the yard...noises from next door being commonplace, why should he look back from the steps? As he subsequently passed Spitalfield Church at 0532 and noticed that time , it's clear he was concerned about getting to work on time, not nosing about next door's yard...

I don't see any signs of the twilight zone...

Dave

Dave, we’re all falling into the same trap of trying to apply reason, logic, respect for evidence and science and common sense. We’re too far down the rabbit-hole for that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well if you're not concerned about lifting illustrations, plans and quotations verbatim from somebody else's work, who am I to complain...

Standing on the top step ie at house level, your feet would probably be 3 feet above garden level, but you'd likely have your view immediate right somewhat restricted by the door frame, and depending which way the door is hung, by the door...so assuming you loiter on the first step out, the middle step, (a fairly big assume if you're unwell and have a really pressing need to get to the wc) then you're probably 2 feet above garden level...so if you're 5 feet 4" tall, allowing say five inches for the difference between your height and "eye level", then your eye level is just under 7 feet off the ground...however, as the steps are likely (as is the case next door) at least three feet from the fence, (and you'd presumably be standing in the centre of the step, not off to one side), you're about 3 feet six inches from a fence which is which is approximately five feet to 5 feet 6 inches high. Therefore, the angle subtended between your eyes and the fence-top would prevent you seeing anything or anyone remotely close to the fence, unless they're very tall or standing bolt upright. That is elementary geometry, which even in my dotage I do vaguely recall...

When you reach ground level, it's doubtful if your line of sight will enable you to see into next door's yard...particularly as you get further down towards the WC...again elementary geometry...

On Cadosche's first visit to the yard he didn't claim to hear anything, until he'd used the wc and was returning to the house...at which he heard voices, presumably whilst he was facing the house and as he mounted the steps, he presumably didn't feel curious enough to look back down the yard...why should he?

On Cadosche's second visit to the yard, he heard a sound as if something fell against the fence.."something seemed suddenly to touch the fence"...we don't know if this was outbound from the house, or inbound...he only had the opportunity to look over the fence fleetingly whilst on his way to the wc...again I suspect his mind was on other matters...all the rest of the way to the wc, the fence obscured his line of sight...on his way back he was again presumably facing away from the yard...noises from next door being commonplace, why should he look back from the steps? As he subsequently passed Spitalfield Church at 0532 and noticed that time , it's clear he was concerned about getting to work on time, not nosing about next door's yard...

I don't see any signs of the twilight zone...

Dave

Dave, I had a notification that you had sent me a visitors message but I could access anything. It also said “see pm’s” but there were none. I tried to sent you a pm just to check but it said that I couldn’t send it because your pm’s were full. Sounds like a ghost in the machine. I was just checking back and hope that you didn’t think that my post #10 was aimed at you because it certainly wasn’t. I’m sure you knew that though.

[Cogidubnus]

Yes...I've deleted ALL my private messages - three times now...I go to messages and it's empty...but it still tells me I've got 642 messages against a maximum 500. I expect tomorrow I'll log in and all my messages back into 2013 will be back...I've tried contacting admin on this and other subjects but get no reply...

[FISHY1118]

Have you ever heard such desperate, dishonest shoehorning twaddle simply to accommodate an utterly discredited theory. I’m sick of reading conspiracy theorist crap like this trying to pass for reason.

Arent there conspiracy theorist forums you can go on and waffle about the Illuminati and Roslyn Chapel?

Jack The Ripper was a serial killer. End of. There isn’t a single, solitary, minutely remote chance of people carrying mutilated corpses around Whitechapel and dumping them in yards and squares. Grow up!

Yes of course i have, from you peddling your own desperate conspiracy theory ... ''that top hat and Gladstone bag man''... the complexity of the murders escapes you , thats plain to see.

[FISHY1118]

Arent there conspiracy theorist forums you can go on and waffle about the Illuminati and Roslyn Chapel?

that would be the casebook '' the boston strangler forum '' if your looking for a lone serial killer i suggert you give it a try .