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Was Mrs McCarthy the only witness silenced ?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    What murder are you talking about?
    Oh - of course - in my defence it was 4am and I was at last flakered enough to go to bed - sorry, my insomnia sometimes gets to me...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by packers stem View Post

      Thursday and Friday .....
      it's a little presumptive to suggest she would be tucked up in bed though if the shop was often open til around three .
      I don't think McCarthy mentioned being in the shop or what time it closed, but I stand to be corrected, that night so she may have been able to shed some light .
      Sorry about the day of the week brain fart...I get so bloody tired, yet still can't sleep...but when I do go to bed nowadays I can be reasonably sure of getting at least some kip - which is more than I often managed when I was working - ah the joys of retirement!

      Anyway - to arms - whilst I'm aware the shop shut late (ie early) I'm not so sure it would've been Mrs M who stayed up until last knockings...I would've thought being open those hours would have carried it's own risks which thus, in the mores of the LVP, probably necessitated a male presence...but perhaps she was actually Ma Baker!

      Cheers

      Dave
      Last edited by Cogidubnus; 06-22-2019, 04:23 PM. Reason: Crucial missing "s" !

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post

        Sorry about the day of the week brain fart...I get so bloody tired, yet still can't sleep...but when I do go to bed nowadays I can be reasonably sure of getting at least some kip - which is more than I often managed when I was working - ah the joys of retirement!

        Anyway - to arms - whilst I'm aware the shop shut late (ie early) I'm not so sure it would've been Mr M who stayed up until last knockings...I would've thought being open those hours would have carried it's own risks which thus, in the mores of the LVP, probably necessitated a male presence...but perhaps she was actually Ma Baker!

        Cheers

        Dave
        It is the obvious but ,we can't know for sure Dave .
        I don't think anybody in that street was going to rob that shop .
        It would have been like mugging Mrs Kray

        It's interesting to note that all early press reports suggest that she was in charge of not only the shop but also the houses in the court
        She very quickly got removed from everything press wise after the first day .
        It strikes me as more than a little odd

        I think you do them an injustice when saying they hedged their bets earlier .
        It was stated that that was the day when she was going to do the rounds but for whatever reason McCarthy sent Bowyer
        You can lead a horse to water.....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by packers stem View Post

          I don't think you'll find a single statement from Mrs McCarthy
          If you do please let me know .
          No other witnesses were told to keep their mouths shut by the police as far as I'm aware
          Interesting in that vein to add that she received that postcard a few days later signed from Jack. Why her?
          Michael Richards

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          • #20
            Originally posted by packers stem View Post

            It's overlooked because it's not that relevant .
            They had no idea regarding time but no way would they have ruled out the time between midnight and 9am based solely upon a couple of sightings considering the timings of the previous victims .
            it may have been the focus but there's no way any time was ruled out at that point
            What I mean is, both Mrs McCarthy & Bowyer had a story to tell about a strange man being in the court. Bowyer even described him to police, yet he was never asked about that by the coroner. The police only returned to Millers Court to specifically ask about Kelly being out after 1:00am because of Hutchinson's story.
            So clearly, the police had overlooked something.
            Regards, Jon S.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              What I mean is, both Mrs McCarthy & Bowyer had a story to tell about a strange man being in the court. Bowyer even described him to police, yet he was never asked about that by the coroner. The police only returned to Millers Court to specifically ask about Kelly being out after 1:00am because of Hutchinson's story.
              So clearly, the police had overlooked something.
              Interesting Jon
              I was aware of the Western Mail piece on Bowyer but I've never heard that Mrs McCarthy saw him too .
              It is important because Bowyer places someone inside the court , not merely in Dorset Street or anywhere else
              You can lead a horse to water.....

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                Interesting in that vein to add that she received that postcard a few days later signed from Jack. Why her?
                Precisely Michael
                It's one of three communications that I suspect are of consequence .
                The location it was sent from .
                Folkestone then was a small port .It was the port where the trains from London met the ferry for France .
                Whoever sent it was almost certainly leaving the country , wonder if he also felt that Mrs McCarthy was running the show ?
                Purely speculative of course .
                It's also interesting that Leman Street denied it's existence to the press on the 12th
                You can lead a horse to water.....

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                • #23
                  There is a discrepancy here, in that the early reports appear to refer to Mrs McCarthy the landlady as McCarthy's mother, whereas the letter was (according to the Echo and Evening News) received by Mrs McCarthy, McCarthy's wife.
                  ​​​​
                  Possibly due to confusion, but most likely two different people.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                    Morning advertiser
                    10th Nov

                    Mrs. M'Carthy, the landlady, might easily have seen the murderer as he passed out of the court, but she observes a strict reticence, having apparently been cautioned by the police.
                    I've mused on this before but the musing didn't get any takers. Is the wording here indicating she had been informally cautioned by the police not to speak or is it actually indicating she had been formally cautioned by the police? - standard practice at the time appears to have been to caution brothel-keepers.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seanr View Post

                      I've mused on this before but the musing didn't get any takers. Is the wording here indicating she had been informally cautioned by the police not to speak or is it actually indicating she had been formally cautioned by the police? - standard practice at the time appears to have been to caution brothel-keepers.
                      Did they have formal cautions back then I wonder ?
                      I strongly suspect the former
                      You can lead a horse to water.....

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                      • #26
                        Certainly, they were still required to formally caution a prisoner.
                        That is different to cautioning a witness, the police could not make a witness stay silent.
                        Regards, Jon S.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                          Interesting Jon
                          I was aware of the Western Mail piece on Bowyer but I've never heard that Mrs McCarthy saw him too .
                          It is important because Bowyer places someone inside the court , not merely in Dorset Street or anywhere else
                          This is the report concerning Mrs McCarthy.

                          Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.
                          The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888


                          McCarthy had a story to tell, but it was about a strange man seen by a customer.
                          Last edited by Wickerman; 06-25-2019, 02:22 AM.
                          Regards, Jon S.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                            This is the report concerning Mrs McCarthy.

                            Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.
                            The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888


                            McCarthy had a story to tell, but it was about a strange man seen by a customer.
                            If she couldn't remember who mentiined it, might it have been Bowyer?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                              If she couldn't remember who mentiined it, might it have been Bowyer?
                              It's interesting because it's a different day .
                              Bowyers sighting was Wednesday afternoon and on top of that he worked for her/him ...
                              she wouldn't describe him as a customer
                              You can lead a horse to water.....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                then theres the story in the paper about bowyer that debs found where he is quoted as saying he was in the court in the middle of the night when mary was killed. so according to this story bowyer places himself very near the crime scene around (possible) TOD.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

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