Israel Schwartz,

[Abby Normal]

Is this Inquest just a figurative erasure of graffiti? Did they believe the club bore some responsibility for the murder but couldn't prove it, and wanted to suppress any suggestion of Jewish immigrant involvement in the crime for the same reasons they erased the grafitti?

Good Lord! Is there anybody who was not involved in this conspiracy?

c.d.

I wasnt!!!

[c.d.]

Is this Inquest just a figurative erasure of graffiti? Did they believe the club bore some responsibility for the murder but couldn't prove it, and wanted to suppress any suggestion of Jewish immigrant involvement in the crime for the same reasons they erased the grafitti?

Good Lord! Is there anybody who was not involved in this conspiracy?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Simon,

Well I guess the obvious answer would be that he was not certain one way or another. And why would he be? So he simply hedged his bet and used the word "possibly."

c.d.

That's Wynne talking cd, not Phillips. Who saw 4 of the Five victims up close. No other physician saw more alleged Ripper victims, therefore no other physician is equally qualified to make a determination whether the wounds or the weapon used reminded him of something he had seen before in this "series".

I had a thought while reading your last post NotBlamed, I wonder whether the killer or killers of these women was under arrest at some point during these investigations. In the initial stages the investigation would follow a most logical route, based on what was found and known, and some men arrested in connection with an earlier murder might have been targeted based on what they knew, and found. Men who fit the facts. Its refreshing to imagine a time, however brief, in the history of these investigations when the facts weren't shaped to fit the suspect. Or theory.

Despite all the protestations that Im sure are out there its clear at least to me that Israel Schwartz is a red herring. What he describes happens at a time when 4 witness statements have a number of men already gathered around a dying woman in the passageway. One of them is Louis Diemshitz. Being mentioned later that month in the Gazette isn't validation for Israel, its just recognition of him. Its a statement that was made. One that was determined, after attempts to authenticate the story, to be of no use in the investigation of how Liz Stride dies. But nonetheless a part of the records.

The bizarre centre staging of Mary Malcolm in this event is to me something quite suggestive of manipulation on the part of the investigators, they knew who Liz Stride was before Mary took the stand. Read the transcripts....she dominates them. The time they give her is extraordinary considering what they already knew. So, why did they allow that to happen? Why were some important witnesses not there...Fanny, Israel...? Was this Inquest presented based on facts or just what the police wanted to release?

Is this Inquest just a figurative erasure of graffiti? Did they believe the club bore some responsibility for the murder but couldn't prove it, and wanted to suppress any suggestion of Jewish immigrant involvement in the crime for the same reasons they erased the grafitti?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Still looking for BS & P.

ELA, Oct 6. The first suspect looks promising:

A man was brought to the Leman-street station on Sunday night, under circumstances which gave the police hopes at first that they had made an important capture. He was arrested, it seems, near Mitre-court, and could give no satisfactory account of himself. His appearance was anything but prepossessing. He was a short, thickset man of about 30, close shaven. Upon him was found 1s. 4½d. in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, evidently those of a woman. In reply to the inspector, he said that he had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment (the very regiment, it will be remembered, whose cognisances was on the envelope found in the pocket of the Buck's-row victim). An examination of his boots, however, was not at all confirmatory of this statement, and he was taken to the cells for inquiries to be made about him. The man was ultimately released.
There was another arrest made during the night, the prisoner being taken to Commercial-road police-station. The prisoner, however, readily furnished his name and address and apparently had no knowledge of the details of the murders. He was discharged upon his statement being verified. The man when taken into custody was in a very excited condition. At 3:15 on Monday morning a third man was arrested and likewise taken to Leman-street police station. He was also released in the course of the day. A description was circulated of a man who is stated to have accosted an "unfortunate" in the vicinity of Commercial-road on Saturday night, and to have threatened to cut her throat if she did not give him money. The woman gave him a shilling, and he then went away.
During Tuesday four persons were arrested on the chance that they might have had something to do with the Berner-street murder, but the only items against them were their own bravado or their suspicious looks. It has become customary for shabbily dressed men who frequent public-houses in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel to proclaim in their cups that they know a great deal about the murders, and as some one in the place generally informs the police, a constable, for form's sake, is obliged to take the braggart to the police-station, where it is, without exception, found that the boasts are utterly untrue. The men taken to the station were in every case discharged. One arrest was effected as far away as Hampton Wick. An individual, apparently a gentleman in reduced circumstances, called on Monday night at an inn, and asked for a lodging. He was admitted, but not long after a remark was made by one who saw him that he was somewhat of the description circulated of the Whitechapel murderer. Mr. Honeycomb, the landlord, also thought he saw a slight resemblance, and a constable was called in, but nothing further was done in the matter, as the man's account of himself was considered satisfactory. On Tuesday morning, however, the visitor's appearance seemed changed to the landlord, and the conclusion come to was that he had shaved his whiskers off during the night. The police were again sent for, and another constable took charge of the man. He was brought across the Thames to Kingston police-station, and there stated that he obtained from the British Consul a free passage from Brussels to London, where he landed on Saturday and stayed during the night. Sunday night he spent at the Sun Hotel, Market-place, Kingston, and on Monday night he went to the King's Head, Hampton Wick, where the unfounded suspicions were aroused. He gave a full account of all his movements since his arrival, and said he had friends at New Malden who would corroborate his statement. These people were visited by the constable, and the statement made by the suspect being found to be pretty correct, he was accordingly released.

So by the Wednesday, still no sign of either man.
I reckon at this point, the police should pay Israel Schwartz a visit....just head on down to 22 Ellen street....or is it Backchurch Lane....or...?

[c.d.]

If Elizabeth Stride was a “Jack the Ripper” victim, why in his summing-up did Wynne Baxter conclude—[and by 23rd October he had enjoyed the luxury of a three week adjournment in which to consider the matter]—that Catherine Eddowes’ murder was “possibly the work of an imitator.”

Hello Simon,

Well I guess the obvious answer would be that he was not certain one way or another. And why would he be? So he simply hedged his bet and used the word "possibly."

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Two minds but with a single thought.

Evening News, 1st October 1888—

“Dr. Phillips who was called to Berner Street shortly after the discovery of the woman's body, (so says Dr. Gordon [Brown], who has made a post-mortem examination of the other body) gives it as his opinion that the two murders were not committed by the same man. Upon this point Dr. Phillips is an authority.”

[Simon Wood]

If Elizabeth Stride was a “Jack the Ripper” victim, why in his summing-up did Wynne Baxter conclude—[and by 23rd October he had enjoyed the luxury of a three week adjournment in which to consider the matter]—that Catherine Eddowes’ murder was “possibly the work of an imitator.”

[The Baron]

there is not 1 iota of evidence connecting the killer of any Canonical with another..

The Baron

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

Making this a string of murders is seeing what suits Al, there is not 1 iota of evidence connecting the killer of any Canonical with another. Without presumption, Liz Strides murder is a solitary event, unless of course some evidence links her to any of the priors..or subsequent murders. There isn't any, and the circumstantial and physical evidence does not indicate her killer was the man that cut his victims throat twice then placed then on their back, spread their legs..pushed up or cut their skirts while doing so, and then mutilated the abdomen of the victim. Single cut, lying on side, skirt at boot tops, no mutilation of any kind after the single cut.

[Michael W Richards]

No doubt you found the Star version of Oct. 1st, but did you also get these two?

Echo, 1 October.
The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it.



The Star
LONDON. TUESDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1888.

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

So when Schwartz is referenced later that month in the Police Gazette it must be because they had some "additional facts?" You and I both know that's not anywhere in any evidence, and that quote helps to show that Israel isn't a cornerstone in this case. At all. People trying to reconstruct a timeline should be very wary if they are using his story as a proven fact.

[The Baron]

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

The same can be said about Hutchinson

If you say he was seen that night at the murder site, the same too apply for Schwarzt, he was seen by the Pipeman


If it was that simple...



The Baron

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

Good point. Might be keeping some back though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

number one squealed a bit couldn't finish straight off

the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly

Someone or ones in the cottages, heard something, and maybe saw something too.

Need a story...

Witness a 'domestic' at 12:45 (Schwartz) > Discover body at 1:00 (Diemschitz) > Refer back to the domestic for explanation.

The witnessing is 'validated' by the discovery, 15 minutes later.
The discovery is 'validated' by the witnessing, 15 minutes earlier.
It's circular logic, but it works to this day.

Evening Standard, Oct 1:

The alarm excited by the recent murders in Whitechapel was yesterday revived and intensified by the discovery of two more murders, similar in their shocking details, which had been committed early that morning nearly in the same locality, and it is assumed by the same hand. The first occurred in Berner-street, Commercial-road, and the second, and by far the most horrible, owing to the mutilation to which the body was subjected, in Mitre-square, situate on the west side of Houndsditch, midway between Bishopgate Within and Aldgate. In the former case, a woman, with her throat gashed and torn, was discovered in the back yard of 40, Berner-street, a short distance from Hanbury-street - the scene of the murder of Annie Chapman. The premises are occupied by the International Working Men's Club. The Steward of the Club (Lewis Diemshitz), on coming home early yesterday morning, found the body of a woman lying in a corner of the yard.

Irish Times, Oct 1:

To all appearances the woman seems to have been taken into the stabling yard, and after having been treated like the former victims, carried out and laid openly in the street. The case, in fact, resembles in many points the Buck's row tragedy.

Stride's murder was a backyard job.
Some of the Oct 1 papers picked up the real story, before the official story was locked down.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Arbeter Fraint said Stride was killed at 12:45.
Israel Schwartz admitted he was very close to the victim at 12:45.
'Witness' Schwartz prolly Jack the Ripper.

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

[mpriestnall]

No doubt you found the Star version of Oct. 1st, but did you also get these two?

Echo, 1 October.
The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it.

The Star
LONDON. TUESDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1888.

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

Wickerman, thanks for posting the Echo, 1 October. That description, albeit very scant, fits my own suspect.

++

Does any know of any other Stride murder newspaper articles, that include description of a stout/broad shouldered man, 40ish by any chance?

I do have a FMP sub, so I will check myself, but any help always appreciated.

Martyn