Israel Schwartz,

[Michael W Richards]

now im no admin but I do believe that is a personal attack and against the rules lol

I did say intentionally.

[Abby Normal]

I did say intentionally.

awww. sneaky lol

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Star, Oct 1:

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

The Star, Oct 2:

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

Irish Times, Oct 2:

During last night and to-day no less than five men were arrested in the East End of London in connection with the murders. Three were at different times conveyed to Leman street Police Station, but one was immediately liberated. Another was detained until noon to-day, when he was set at liberty after giving a statement of his movements. He was found to have been in straitened circumstances and o have passed much of his time in common lodginghouses in Whitechapel, but there was nothing to show that he had anything to do with the murders. The third man was detained until the afternoon when he, after due inquiry, was also liberated. Of the two men detained at Commercial street, one was liberated soon after his arrest, but the other, named Frank Raper, was kept in custody. It appears he was arrested late on Saturday night at a publichouse known as "Dirty Dick's" near Liverpool street. He was standing in the bars while under the influence of liquor, and made a number of extravagant statements about the murder of Mrs Chapman and Mrs Nicholls. The bystanders sent out and obtained a constable, and when the policeman entered he was openly boasting of being the murderer, and complimenting himself on the means he had adopted to destroy all trace of his identity. He was removed to the police station, followed by a large and excited crowd. On being charged, Raper said he had no settled address, and inquiries have satisfied the police that he is not the man wanted, so eh was set free later in the day. There was a rumour early this morning that a man had been arrested in Southwark, but no intelligence of the fact was communicated to the City or Whitechapel police.

Five men arrested. All five set free in very little time.
Can't find Broad-shouldered man.
Can't find Pipeman.
Arbeter Fraint said Stride was killed at 12:45.
Israel Schwartz admitted he was very close to the victim at 12:45.
'Witness' Schwartz prolly Jack the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

The Star, Oct 1:



The Star, Oct 2:



Irish Times, Oct 2:



Five men arrested. All five set free in very little time.
Can't find Broad-shouldered man.
Can't find Pipeman.
Arbeter Fraint said Stride was killed at 12:45.
Israel Schwartz admitted he was very close to the victim at 12:45.
'Witness' Schwartz prolly Jack the Ripper.

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

[DJA]

Who really placed Schwartz near the entrance to Dutfield's Yard at 12.45am!

Abberline?

[c.d.]

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

Exactly.

c.d.

[mpriestnall]

No doubt you found the Star version of Oct. 1st, but did you also get these two?

Echo, 1 October.
The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it.

The Star
LONDON. TUESDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1888.

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

Wickerman, thanks for posting the Echo, 1 October. That description, albeit very scant, fits my own suspect.

++

Does any know of any other Stride murder newspaper articles, that include description of a stout/broad shouldered man, 40ish by any chance?

I do have a FMP sub, so I will check myself, but any help always appreciated.

Martyn

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Arbeter Fraint said Stride was killed at 12:45.
Israel Schwartz admitted he was very close to the victim at 12:45.
'Witness' Schwartz prolly Jack the Ripper.

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

number one squealed a bit couldn't finish straight off

the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly

Someone or ones in the cottages, heard something, and maybe saw something too.

Need a story...

Witness a 'domestic' at 12:45 (Schwartz) > Discover body at 1:00 (Diemschitz) > Refer back to the domestic for explanation.

The witnessing is 'validated' by the discovery, 15 minutes later.
The discovery is 'validated' by the witnessing, 15 minutes earlier.
It's circular logic, but it works to this day.

Evening Standard, Oct 1:

The alarm excited by the recent murders in Whitechapel was yesterday revived and intensified by the discovery of two more murders, similar in their shocking details, which had been committed early that morning nearly in the same locality, and it is assumed by the same hand. The first occurred in Berner-street, Commercial-road, and the second, and by far the most horrible, owing to the mutilation to which the body was subjected, in Mitre-square, situate on the west side of Houndsditch, midway between Bishopgate Within and Aldgate. In the former case, a woman, with her throat gashed and torn, was discovered in the back yard of 40, Berner-street, a short distance from Hanbury-street - the scene of the murder of Annie Chapman. The premises are occupied by the International Working Men's Club. The Steward of the Club (Lewis Diemshitz), on coming home early yesterday morning, found the body of a woman lying in a corner of the yard.

Irish Times, Oct 1:

To all appearances the woman seems to have been taken into the stabling yard, and after having been treated like the former victims, carried out and laid openly in the street. The case, in fact, resembles in many points the Buck's row tragedy.

Stride's murder was a backyard job.
Some of the Oct 1 papers picked up the real story, before the official story was locked down.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

Good point. Might be keeping some back though.

[The Baron]

its a possibility. but why admit you were there at all?

The same can be said about Hutchinson

If you say he was seen that night at the murder site, the same too apply for Schwarzt, he was seen by the Pipeman


If it was that simple...



The Baron

[Michael W Richards]

No doubt you found the Star version of Oct. 1st, but did you also get these two?

Echo, 1 October.
The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it.



The Star
LONDON. TUESDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1888.

In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

So when Schwartz is referenced later that month in the Police Gazette it must be because they had some "additional facts?" You and I both know that's not anywhere in any evidence, and that quote helps to show that Israel isn't a cornerstone in this case. At all. People trying to reconstruct a timeline should be very wary if they are using his story as a proven fact.

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz a candidate for Strides murder is one matter, a candidate for what, 3,4,5 more killings? That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Be wary of making the 'facts' fit the candidate and seeing only what suits.

Making this a string of murders is seeing what suits Al, there is not 1 iota of evidence connecting the killer of any Canonical with another. Without presumption, Liz Strides murder is a solitary event, unless of course some evidence links her to any of the priors..or subsequent murders. There isn't any, and the circumstantial and physical evidence does not indicate her killer was the man that cut his victims throat twice then placed then on their back, spread their legs..pushed up or cut their skirts while doing so, and then mutilated the abdomen of the victim. Single cut, lying on side, skirt at boot tops, no mutilation of any kind after the single cut.

[The Baron]

there is not 1 iota of evidence connecting the killer of any Canonical with another..

The Baron

[Simon Wood]

If Elizabeth Stride was a “Jack the Ripper” victim, why in his summing-up did Wynne Baxter conclude—[and by 23rd October he had enjoyed the luxury of a three week adjournment in which to consider the matter]—that Catherine Eddowes’ murder was “possibly the work of an imitator.”