Israel Schwartz,

[Michael W Richards]

This Gull-crap is dull...how about one tiny shred of evidence, hard evidence, that Gull had anything to do with anyones murder.....? Right. There is None. If your going to invent reasons for people to have killed at least find some connection to any murder, let alone Ripper kills.

[Losmandris]

Does anyone know if a copy of any newspaper report that contains Israel Schwartz statement on the night liz stride was murdered exist?.

Possibly need to start a new thread for this but......

Is Schwartz a reliable witness?

Am I right in thinking that the police did not think so, as he wasn't really referred to/feature prominently in subsequent enquiries?

Tristan

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Possibly need to start a new thread for this but......

Is Schwartz a reliable witness?

Am I right in thinking that the police did not think so, as he wasn't really referred to/feature prominently in subsequent enquiries?

Tristan

They certainly had more faith in Lawende, who was recalled for later ID parades. The police seem to have taken him seriously and published a description of BS man. Why he was not at inquest, we don't know. The Star published a different version of Schwartz' statement which they claim was first hand. It has BS man 'tipsy' and pipe man comes out of a pub. However, it then claims that Schwartz was positive that pipe man had a knife and tried to attack him? Apart from his now lost original statement, Schwartz never crops up again, strange for someone who apparently witnessed a murder.

[c.d.]

It was supposedly directed at Schwartz. It was supposedly yelled by a burly man accosting the soon to be victim, and it was supposed to have taken place in the street outside the gates. Shame that NONE of that has any validation by any other witness, and that it was not included in any way shape or form in the Inquest data.

People have to focus here....Schwartz has always been a non starter, and the belief in him defeats any possible chance at discovering any truth about the Murder on Berner that night.

Hello Michael,

Well if there were no other witnesses besides Schwartz how is that his fault exactly? It certainly would have been nice and helpful to us had there been other witnesses but it is what it is. There are literally thousands of crimes where there is only a single witness.

c.d.

[FISHY1118]

This Gull-crap is dull...how about one tiny shred of evidence, hard evidence, that Gull had anything to do with anyones murder.....? Right. There is None. If your going to invent reasons for people to have killed at least find some connection to any murder, let alone Ripper kills.

Wheres the hard evidence that links Druitt Cutbush , Kominski, Tumblty, Maybrick , Chapman Kloswoski, Barnett , Carrol, Padachenko .and the other 90 suspects ?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Well if there were no other witnesses besides Schwartz how is that his fault exactly? It certainly would have been nice and helpful to us had there been other witnesses but it is what it is. There are literally thousands of crimes where there is only a single witness.

c.d.

I agree that it would have helped Israels case if someone else had heard or seen something....remember we have Fanny Mortimer at her door from 12:50 until 1am, we have 4 witnesses that said they were in the passageway by the body at around 12:45, (1 being Spooner..which makes me wonder what happened to the young woman he was talking to), ..including 3 club witnesses, Kozebrodski, Heschberg and Gillen. We have the young couple seen by 2 people, we have people awake in the cottages in the passageway, ...you see its not that no-one else could have heard or seen something. People were nearby.

[Michael W Richards]

Wheres the hard evidence that links Druitt Cutbush , Kominski, Tumblty, Maybrick , Chapman Kloswoski, Barnett , Carrol, Padachenko .and the other 90 suspects ?

I am on the same page with you on this issue Fishy...there is no hard evidence of any kind linking any one of those, or any so called Suspect, to the murders of the Canonical Five or the other unsolved murders in the file. Police mentioning names in Memorandums or private notes, to the press or for publications means nothing, had there been a solid case to make against anyone we would have some indication of it in the documents that remain.

That being said, there are good candidates for some of the murders, the unfortunate thing for "ripper" enthusiasts, that data indicates multiple killers with varying motivations.

The suggestion was that had the police the same power to hold people indefinitely on suspicion alone, like was done in France for example, then they could have caught the guy. What does that say....that a cessation in any murders from the date of incarceration means they had the right guy?...or would that be extracting a confession by any means possible?...or did they feel if they had more time to investigate each suspect they might have found him?...they had nothin.

My own opinion is that their public backing of a mad suspect being responsible for at least five of the murders, if it was not disinformation, was their downfall. They presumed a series and looked for someone to fit that...just like these current days.

[Abby Normal]

This Gull-crap is dull...how about one tiny shred of evidence, hard evidence, that Gull had anything to do with anyones murder.....? Right. There is None. If your going to invent reasons for people to have killed at least find some connection to any murder, let alone Ripper kills.

oh this is rich-a police conspiracist ragging on a royal conspiracist. lol

heres a suggestion-how about all you conspiracy buffs stop cramming the boards with your crackpot theories and for gods sake if you have to go on at least keep it to a pertinent thread.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Michael,

Well if there were no other witnesses besides Schwartz how is that his fault exactly? It certainly would have been nice and helpful to us had there been other witnesses but it is what it is. There are literally thousands of crimes where there is only a single witness.

c.d.

exactly cd. and trying to get this thread back on track...
what people fail to realize is that a witness evidence dosnt have to be corroborated to be valid or truthful and used in court. Happens a hundred times a day in courts everywhere and always has.

There is absolutely no evidence that Israel Schwartz was lying or mistaken etc. And anyway his eye witness testimony is corroborated by the fact that other witnesses also saw a suspect with victims that night wearing a peaked cap and fitting BS mans description.

[Michael W Richards]

exactly cd. and trying to get this thread back on track...
what people fail to realize is that a witness evidence dosnt have to be corroborated to be valid or truthful and used in court. Happens a hundred times a day in courts everywhere and always has.

There is absolutely no evidence that Israel Schwartz was lying or mistaken etc. And anyway his eye witness testimony is corroborated by the fact that other witnesses also saw a suspect with victims that night wearing a peaked cap and fitting BS mans description.

Don't be intentionally obtuse, if you want to believe in something and call it factual then have some evidence at the very least. There is no evidence at all that what Israel says happened even happened, which makes lying or mistaken the preferable position, not the inverse.

[Michael W Richards]

Just an addon, since there is no known tangible connection of Liz Strides killer to Kate Eddowes killer, despite the fact that similar men were reportedly seen about the area(s), something which has been known since the beginning without creating any connectivity between the cases, might be best not to try and make an argument for Israel based on Eddowes witness descriptions.

[JeffHamm]

There was a lot of "chatter" between Home Office and the Police with regards to Schwartz's statement, particularly around the name Lipsky. There is documentation that they considered it important to look for any Lipski's in the area. It wasn't until it was pointed out that Lipski had become a derogatory name used against Jews that it was considered likely that it was directed at Schwartz and not pipeman.

The last part is evidenced by a report from Sir Charles Warren to the Home Office, stamped as received on the 7th of NOV, 1888) and found on page 135 of Evans and Skinner's "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion" (and excellent source material reference by the way), which reads:

------------------------------

Confidential

4 Whitehall Place, S.W.
6th November, 1888

Sir,
With reference to your letter of the 29th ulto. I have to acquaint you, for the information of the Secretary of State, that the opinion arrived at upon the evidence given by Schwartz at the inquest in Elizabeth Stride's case is that the name "Lipski", which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berners [sic] Street on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself. It appears that since the Lipski case it has come to be used as an epithet in addressing or speaking of Jews.

With regards to the latter portion of your letter I have to state that searching enquiries were made by an officer in Aberdeen Place, St. John's Wood, the last known address of the insane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders did reside with her son at No. 20, but left that address to go abroad about two years ago.

I am,
Sir,
Your most obedient Servant,
C. Warren.
--------------------

Oddly, the letter seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but I'm thinking the intention is that "the opinion arrived at the inquest" with reference to "Schwartz's evidence" rather than Schwartz's evidence was given at the inquest per se. I can hardly imagine that the press would not have made a field day of this testimony had it been given, and there's nothing to even suggest it was given only to the jury and coroner. However, Warren was passing on the information from a report by Abberline (Dated Nov 1, 1888; found on page 126, Evans & Skinner), which indicates the above information (Lipski as an insult) was known by Abberline even during his questioning of Schwartz), and also indicates that the police, at least at the time, took Schwartz's statement seriously enough to conduct searches for "Lipski's" in the area.

Unfortunately, we do not know if their opinion of Schwartz's statement eventually cooled, and if it did, why they felt it less valuable. I recall reading a thread where it has been suggested that "Pipe-man" may have been identified and questioned, and if so, there might have been information from him, lost to us now, that influenced the view of Schwartz.

------------------------------------

SUBJECT Whitechapel Murders
REFERENCE TO PAPERS
52983
1,119

With reference to the annexed copy extract from Home Office Letter.

I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as a mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

I quested Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say.

There was only one other person to be seen in the street, and that was a man on the opposite side of the road in the act of lighting a pipe.

Schwartz being a foreigner and unable to speak English became alarmed and ran away. The man whom he saw lighting his pipe also ran in the same direction as himself, but whether this man was running after him or not he could not tell, he might have been alarmed the same as himself and ran away.

A house to house inquiry was made in Berner Street with a view to ascertain whether any person was seen acting suspiciously or any noise heard on the night in question but without result.

Inquiries have also been made in the neighbourhood but no person named Lipski could be found.

With regard to the second question
I beg to report that searching inquiries were made by ["Sergt. Froest" - deleted and "an officer" put in margin] in Aberdeen Place St. Johns Wood the last known address of the instane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders resided with her son at No. 20, but left there to go abroad about 2 years ago.

F.G. Abberline, Inspt. Supt.

----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the police did take Scwartz seriously, looked for Lipski's (even though they thought it most likely it was just a slurr directed to Schwartz), and were following up as best they could given the times.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hmmm, it occurs to me, that if Warren, in his letter above, is using "at the inquest" in a broader sense to include the statements given by witnesses in preparation for the formal inquest itself, and not just the witnesses and statements given at the formal inquest, then his statement as written makes sense. But I don't know if those "pre-inquest" statements might have been referred to in that way?

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Don't be intentionally obtuse, if you want to believe in something and call it factual then have some evidence at the very least. There is no evidence at all that what Israel says happened even happened, which makes lying or mistaken the preferable position, not the inverse.

Don't be intentionally obtuse

now im no admin but I do believe that is a personal attack and against the rules lol

[Michael W Richards]

There was a lot of "chatter" between Home Office and the Police with regards to Schwartz's statement, particularly around the name Lipsky. There is documentation that they considered it important to look for any Lipski's in the area. It wasn't until it was pointed out that Lipski had become a derogatory name used against Jews that it was considered likely that it was directed at Schwartz and not pipeman.

The last part is evidenced by a report from Sir Charles Warren to the Home Office, stamped as received on the 7th of NOV, 1888) and found on page 135 of Evans and Skinner's "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion" (and excellent source material reference by the way), which reads:

------------------------------

Confidential

4 Whitehall Place, S.W.
6th November, 1888

Sir,
With reference to your letter of the 29th ulto. I have to acquaint you, for the information of the Secretary of State, that the opinion arrived at upon the evidence given by Schwartz at the inquest in Elizabeth Stride's case is that the name "Lipski", which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berners [sic] Street on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself. It appears that since the Lipski case it has come to be used as an epithet in addressing or speaking of Jews.

With regards to the latter portion of your letter I have to state that searching enquiries were made by an officer in Aberdeen Place, St. John's Wood, the last known address of the insane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders did reside with her son at No. 20, but left that address to go abroad about two years ago.

I am,
Sir,
Your most obedient Servant,
C. Warren.
--------------------

Oddly, the letter seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but I'm thinking the intention is that "the opinion arrived at the inquest" with reference to "Schwartz's evidence" rather than Schwartz's evidence was given at the inquest per se. I can hardly imagine that the press would not have made a field day of this testimony had it been given, and there's nothing to even suggest it was given only to the jury and coroner. However, Warren was passing on the information from a report by Abberline (Dated Nov 1, 1888; found on page 126, Evans & Skinner), which indicates the above information (Lipski as an insult) was known by Abberline even during his questioning of Schwartz), and also indicates that the police, at least at the time, took Schwartz's statement seriously enough to conduct searches for "Lipski's" in the area.

Unfortunately, we do not know if their opinion of Schwartz's statement eventually cooled, and if it did, why they felt it less valuable. I recall reading a thread where it has been suggested that "Pipe-man" may have been identified and questioned, and if so, there might have been information from him, lost to us now, that influenced the view of Schwartz.

------------------------------------

SUBJECT Whitechapel Murders
REFERENCE TO PAPERS
52983
1,119

With reference to the annexed copy extract from Home Office Letter.

I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as a mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

I quested Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say.

There was only one other person to be seen in the street, and that was a man on the opposite side of the road in the act of lighting a pipe.

Schwartz being a foreigner and unable to speak English became alarmed and ran away. The man whom he saw lighting his pipe also ran in the same direction as himself, but whether this man was running after him or not he could not tell, he might have been alarmed the same as himself and ran away.

A house to house inquiry was made in Berner Street with a view to ascertain whether any person was seen acting suspiciously or any noise heard on the night in question but without result.

Inquiries have also been made in the neighbourhood but no person named Lipski could be found.

With regard to the second question
I beg to report that searching inquiries were made by ["Sergt. Froest" - deleted and "an officer" put in margin] in Aberdeen Place St. Johns Wood the last known address of the instane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders resided with her son at No. 20, but left there to go abroad about 2 years ago.

F.G. Abberline, Inspt. Supt.

----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the police did take Scwartz seriously, looked for Lipski's (even though they thought it most likely it was just a slurr directed to Schwartz), and were following up as best they could given the times.

- Jeff

No, the police wrote and said they took him seriously.....(see lack of any kind of reference to him or his story in the Official Inquest)