How strange is this

[MayBea]

I did some research on Caroline Maxwell in conjunction with the search for Joseph Barnett's 'wife', Louisa. I found nothing from other sources or from my own research.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8080&page=3

A Henry Maxwell (slightly different birth year) similar location had a father called John who was an absentee from a young age by spending time in prison.

This Henry Maxwell sounds interesting.

[MysterySinger]

And what may also be as strange ...a death occurred in Whitechapel Union Infirmary on 24th May 1889 of one Henry Maxwell aged 52 from pneumonia.

A Henry Maxwell (slightly different birth year) similar location had a father called John who was an absentee from a young age by spending time in prison. I also think that his son Henry may have followed in his footsteps. Links are yet to be established thoroughly.

Could be interesting. But Caroline Maxwell is also an elusive with regard to census information. Has much research been carried out on her?

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
All I can go by is the actual words used..that the police thought the crime was committed during daylight, and the velvet jacket , and bonnet, were burnt because they were bloodstained.
As you quite rightly say..is it possible that they could tell if burnt items were stained?
If the bloodstained items were found in the room, it would suggest that these were on the bed itself, in order to be soiled..and destroyed by the police, because of this, which is hard to believe..?
Mystery's again..
Regards Richard.

[MysterySinger]

Unspectacular speculation from me above, of course, and perhaps a little mundane for some.

However, would the Police have had a decent photo of MJK at the time to show potential witnesses - I doubt it - and so people would have had to go on assumptions and Mrs Maxwell could easily have got confused as to who she actually saw that day. There again, as has been mentioned it could have been part of a cover up.

How do the times stack up? MJK had to be dead by the time they went to collect the rent and it would have taken some time for the murderer to inflict those injuries.

Are you saying the Police burnt the remains of Kelly's velvet jacket? Otherwise how could they have known it was burnt because of blood stains?

[richardnunweek]

Hi...
All good speculation, I am of the opinion that this letter is a vital clue, and should be addressed more seriously.
Penned from the address of a establishment directly opposite Millers court, the address of the most controversial witness. in the entire case,[ Maxwell]..
Was her statement an attempt to give someone from that lodging house an alibi, someone who never had one during the night...
Everyone has discussed the strange account of Mrs Maxwell since books were written on the subject. and even the police believed that the killer struck in daylight...
Yet we ignore what the police at the time believed, even though they were there, and we were not...
There also stated, that the remains of Kelly's velvet jacket, was burnt because it was bloodstained....explanations please?
Regards Richard.

[MysterySinger]

As a newby to the forums I have only recently come across this thread.

Given that the letter in question was addressed from 14 Dorset Street and was quite specific (and fairly accurate) about the date of the next Ripper murder it sounds like the writer was acting on information - or rumour- received. It could well have come from an occupant of that address, especially if that was also a house of ill repute. Miss Smith from Yarmouth could easily have overheard something.

I suspect that "Jack" could have been the owner of one of the brothels in the local area and concerned that ladies outside of his establishment were drawing business away or, in fact, was a kind of pimp and in receipt of payments from those ladies and when none was forthcoming arranged to have the murders carried out. The severe nature of the injuries inflicted being a warning to others. Clearly MJK was in desperate need of 6d that evening.

We know that MJK often had another prostitute staying with her and it could have been intended that both women would be victims that night. Hence the reference to two Norwich women. One website holds that in Victorian Slang a "Norwicher" was someone taking more than their fair share of somethtng. That could apply to all the victims perhaps. http://skittishlibrary.co.uk/victori...eek-norwicher/

If Mrs Maxwell know of the two ladies at 13 Miller's Court and didn't know them too well she may have got the names mixed up - thinking that the other lady was called MJK when she saw her after the time of the murder. There are, of course, a number of names in the frame including, for example, Julia Venturney.

What if "Jack" was Mr Maxwell who became ill and died not too long after the murders stopped? Perhaps he did it himself or hired a paid killer.

[Natasha]

Thanks for the reply but the claimed sightings of Kelly after her supposed time of death only argue against Kelly being the victim if the time of death was estimated correctly. If the estimated T.O.D. is wrong the sightings cease to be incongruous.

I must admit the time of death can not really be ascertained.

Even supposing that Albrook's claim is correct why would MJK's departing the scene to return to her family necessitate a substitute body? It was easy enough to disappear in Victorian England.

I admit that I did suggest this in a previous thread I started a while ago, and TBH I don't really have 100% confidence in that theory. So that said, maybe the ripper had actually killed someone else who had frequented that room. The disfiguring may have been done by Kelly upon discovering the body and realising this would be a good way to disappear without the worry of someone finding her. I know that does sound really nuts ! On the other hand it needn't have been her that did this, she may have enlisted the help of someone else to do the disfiguring.

[Bridewell]

Hi Bridewell,

As Azarna pointed out Maxwell claims to have seen Kelly. Also Dew (if what he says is true) says in his memoirs, Albrook said Kelly was talking about staying with her mum as it would be safer.

The level of injury inflicted on kelly's face also makes me wonder why it was done to such an extent that it rendered the features unrecognisable.

Thanks for the reply but the claimed sightings of Kelly after her supposed time of death only argue against Kelly being the victim if the time of death was estimated correctly. If the estimated T.O.D. is wrong the sightings cease to be incongruous.

Even supposing that Albrook's claim is correct why would MJK's departing the scene to return to her family necessitate a substitute body? It was easy enough to disappear in Victorian England.

[Natasha]

What reason is there to suppose that Kelly was not the victim found - in Kelly's room and in her bed?

Hi Bridewell,

As Azarna pointed out Maxwell claims to have seen Kelly. Also Dew (if what he says is true) says in his memoirs, Albrook said Kelly was talking about staying with her mum as it would be safer.

The level of injury inflicted on kelly's face also makes me wonder why it was done to such an extent that it rendered the features unrecognisable.

[Wickerman]

Two witnesses (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) claim to have seen her alive after her supposed time of death.

I'm not so sure about Lewis.

If you notice it was Caroline Maxwell who went out to get milk after 8 o'clock.

"Mrs. Maxwell, the deputy of the Commercial lodging-house, ..... saw Mary Jane Kelly standing at the entrance to Miller's-court at half-past 8 on Friday morning..... When asked by the police how she could fix the time of the morning, Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk"

Then we have Morris Lewis, who claims:
"....a tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock, and go back."
"....he was playing pitch-and-toss in the court at nine o'clock yesterday morning, and an hour before that he saw the woman leave the house and return with some milk."

These are the actions of Maxwell, we might wonder if the reporter had not confused Lewis's statement. Not that he saw Kelly, but only confirming the movements of Caroline Maxwell.

"On inquiries being made at the milkshop indicated by the woman her statement was found to be correct,..."

Whether these inquiries were made by police or press is not stated, but if someone had the presence of mind to confirm Maxwell's story, then surely someone must have also asked about Lewis's story, about Kelly also going to the milk shop?
Perhaps this is one reason Lewis did not appear at the inquest, his claim could not be confirmed?
Which might suggest something was confused about what he said.

[Azarna]

What reason is there to suppose that Kelly was not the victim found - in Kelly's room and in her bed?

Two witnesses (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) claim to have seen her alive after her supposed time of death.

Her face had been hacked to pieces. It said she was identified by "her eyes and ears", but some have suggested it would have been impossible to identify her from the remains (with 1888 technology).

Very little is know about her life and background. This has lead to speculation about who she really was and reasons she may have had for wanting to disappear after people thought she was dead.

[Bridewell]

Hi PC

I have wondered this myself on numerous occasions. If Kelly wasn't the victim found, could it be possible that the letter was written by her?

What reason is there to suppose that Kelly was not the victim found - in Kelly's room and in her bed?

[Azarna]

I think we should bear in mind that two of the "amazing coincidences" are perhaps sort of just one.

So the letter says it comes from 14 Dorset Street, which is opposite the entrance to the yard where MJK was murdered a week after its sending.

Mrs Maxwell lived at 14 Dorset Street and was an important witness of MJK.

However someone who witnessed (or claims to have witnessed) MJK is most likely to have lived near to MJK. Someone living right opposite her is far more likely to have seen her than someone from an address further away.

Therefore the "amazing coincidence" that the address used on the letter is both near to MJK's home, and the residence of an MJK witness is because the two facts are linked to each other in the first place.

[Natasha]

That is very interesting, indeed. Maybe so...

According to Dew's memoirs Lizzie Albrook was supposed to have quoted Kelly:

"This will be the last Lord Mayor's Show I shall see, said Marie tearfully. I can't stand it any longer. This Jack the Ripper business is getting on my nerves. I have made up my mind to go home to my mother. It is safer there."


If that is true, perhaps she wrote the letter to try to prevent the murder taking place and seeing as that failed decided not to hang around.

[Pcdunn]

Interesting supposition...

Hi PC

I have wondered this myself on numerous occasions. If Kelly wasn't the victim found, could it be possible that the letter was written by her?

That is very interesting, indeed. Maybe so...