Marshall's "Clerkly Man"

[lynn cates]

Hello All. I think we are overdue for another discussion of the “Clerkly Man.” Although I am not an enthusiast for Marshall’s testimony, let’s suppose, for the purpose of this thread, that his testimony was correct and that Liz was with a clerkly man who was kissing her and who said "You would say anything but your prayers."

My question is this. Could this clerkly man be, in fact, a clerk, say, one from the Swedish church in St. George’s-in-the-East?

This would explain:

1. Why Liz left Michael on Tuesday.

2. Why Liz had left her velvet and hymnal with others. (Recall that it was Ollsen who had given her the hymnal in the first place.)

3. It would be consonant with his remark about prayer.

4. It would adapt well to both the speech and manners described by Marshall.

5. It would explain why Liz was in St. George’s-in-the-East.

6. It might explain the flowers and cachous.

IF she were with a clerk from the Swedish church, who was he? Ollsen would be difficult to back as the candidate since he testified at inquest and might perhaps have been spotted by another witness.

Do we know any of the church staff besides Ollsen?

Finally, it is not necessary that the clerkly chap killed Liz—only that they were together.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Is it not more likely that Liz and a clerk or cleric from the Swedish Church would have conversed in Swedish? Nothing's certain I know but...

Personally I always enjoyed the wit behind "You would say anything but your prayers"...I'm sure I'll find an opportunity to use it some day!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

How Swede it is!

Hello Dave. Could be. Were all the staff Swedish?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hi Lynn,

I haven't got my copy of "The Ultimate" with me, so can't answer my own question. How does Marshall's "clerkly man" compare with Schwartz's BS Man?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Fisherman]

Bridewell:

"How does Marshall's "clerkly man" compare with Schwartz's BS Man?"

They were very much alike. And totally different.

Depends on who you ask ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Bridewell]

Your Choice

Bridewell:

"How does Marshall's "clerkly man" compare with Schwartz's BS Man?"

They were very much alike. And totally different.

Depends on who you ask ...

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Why am I not surprised at that!

Which option do you subscribe to? (I assume that, even in Ripperology, it's not possible to have a foot in both camps on this one.)

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Cm & Bs

Hello Colin. Well, thereby hangs a tale. Christer thinks they are the same. Not sure I see the identification.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

indeed

Hello Christer. Hmm, looks like I should have read your post before answering Colin.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The following is from Ripper Notes (on-line) as I don't have my stuff with me:

BS Man: Age 30, 5' 5" tall, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad-shouldered, wearing a dark jacket and trousers and a black cap with peak.

Marshall: Middle-aged. 5' 6", rather stout, small black coat, dark trousers. Round cap with a small peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear.

Marshall didn't see the face of the man he described, so the lack of reference to facial hair (or the lack of it) is understandable. With no particular axe to grind either way on this one, I see more similarities that differences. The critical aspect is obviously what Marshall means by middle-aged. I'm drawn to a comparison between Marshall's description and that of Mrs Long. Two witnesses who only saw their man from the rear describe, respectively, "middle-aged" and "over 40". Coul we be looking at a young man whose demeanour is that of an older one, or who dresses older than his years? This isn't a theory as such, just a suggestion.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

identity?

Hello Colin. Well, it looks like both are a bit thick set.

But it is hard to see anything soft spoken, educated or clerkly about BS man.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Bridewell:

"Which option do you subscribe to? "

Well, Lynn has already spilled the beans: I think that they may well be one and the same. Not only are they both described as wearing the same type of attire, they are also both described as decent or respectable, and they are both described as sturdy fellows.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"it is hard to see anything soft spoken, educated or clerkly about BS man."

He was described as respectably clad, Lynn. And he was also described as half-tipsy, and such a thing may well take the clerk out of both you and me...

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

one more

Hello Christer. It may indeed.

Permit me to ask cautiously, Would you extend the BS & CM identity to include Lechmere?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"Permit me to ask cautiously, Would you extend the BS & CM identity to include Lechmere?"

It would be strange if the thought had not occurred to me! But we have precious little to work with in this respect, so I am very cautious about any such thoughts. Let´s just say that a clerkly, soft-spoken character would perhaps not swear against a man who was not far removed from a family of landowners and very rich people - Lechmere´s father was the first one to suffer the consequences of what would have been a squandered family fortune, and I don´t think it is very far-fetched to make the assumption that he (the father) would have passed down some gentlemanly manners to young Charles.
But this is pure speculation and climbing clumsily on the frailest of limbs, Lynn. So let´s leave it there, for the moment!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Christer. Thanks. Yes, we'll leave it there.

Cheers.
LC