"City PC"

[Wickerman]

Couldn`t this refer to the man Sergeant Stephen White saw? I have always thought so. The one with the rubber shoes and eyes like glow-worms.

Almost extraordinary how this well-dressed man "with funny eyes" is always hovering in the background.

Henry Birch (the dairyman) described such a man acting strange the day after the Nichols murder:

"His hair was dark, and his eyes large and staring."


John Best describes the man seen with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms:

"He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes."


Bowyer saw a man talking with Mary Kelly on the Wednesday before her murder, whom he described:

"..had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes."


Mrs Kennedy saw a man outside the Britannia on the night of Kelly's death, just minutes from Millers Court, and she:

"..noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes,.."


Either witnesses tend to be drawn to a suspects eyes, meaning they could all be referring to different people, or, we have fleeting references to the same suspicious character.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Almost extraordinary how this well-dressed man "with funny eyes" is always hovering in the background.

Extraordinary? Perhaps, unless you're looking at a man with 'grey' eyes described as 'mean' and 'glaring'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

MacNaghten via Sims

The following from George R Sims, supposedly fed by MacNaghten:

'The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court (sic) said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.'

as is this (Lloyds Weekly News 22nd September 1907):

One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim.

If MacNaghten meant 'City police witness' when he wrote 'City PC', it would seem that he never got around to correcting his error through his journalist friend - although this looks more like a reference to Watkins than to Harvey.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Jonathan H]

That's right, Bridewell.

Mac, via Sims, cobbled those two bits together to shoehorn the Jewish suspect into the 1888 investigation (he also has Sims claim that the fiend was seen with a beard, a made-up bit exploiting Sims' peculiar need to be the fiend's double).

Other primary sources show this idea of a beat cop seeing a Jewish suspect to be very unlikely.

Sure enough, in his 1914 memoirs Mac airbrushed out the Jewish suspect with Eddowes -- even deploying, for the only time, the anti-Semitic graffiti to show that the real 'Jack' must be a Gentile -- and thus now has the beat cop see nothing of significance.

[Scott Nelson]

Harvey stayed with the body of Eddowes while others went to fetch assistance (after Watkins dispatched Morris and he returned with officers). Although Harvey didn't "stumble" across the lifeless body of the victim, he was nevertheless, there standing over her while others arrived.

[S.Brett]

Hello!

Is it possible that the City PC had been Thomas Ede (William Eade)?

In a well-known list of Swanson there is the numeral 201 after the names of Nichols and Chapman.

Thomas Ede (also called William Eade), a witness who played a role in both cases, claimed at the end that he had seen Henry James.

Anderson:

“…but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.”

Perhaps Ede (Eade) learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

In the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court, I found the following:

1843 WILLIAM EADE (police constable D 67.)
1843 WILLIAM EADE . I am a policeman. I was in Great James-street
1849 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 125)
1857 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE . (City Policeman, 78)
1860 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)
1864 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)

T H I S Eade worked for both departments? MET (D 67) and City Police?

D 67= MET?
125, 78, 146= City Police?

So there were these numbers in both departments? City Policeman 201 and MET Whitechapel H-Division, H 201. Course C201, K201, E201…

These numbers were always. For example: H-Divison, PC Weeks H201 and later PC Bridle H201

They changed the name Thomas Ede to a name of an Ex-Constable (William Eade)?

To Ede (Eade):

Was he a former Policeman? Perhaps for both departments, wearing the numeral 201 and once living or working in Mitre Square?

Were there any connections to the Jewish Population?

There were probably Jewish Policemen:
Isaac Jacobs, C 201
PC Abrahams (acting as German interpreter—Oct 6th 1894)

What was his age in 1888?

If Ede (Eade) had been the witness and he was an Ex- Policeman (City Police and/or MET) other people might have been confused the issue with PC Watkins.

An Ex-Policeman (with Jewish connections) and a Police Seaside Home would also fit well.

Best Regards

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello!

Is it possible that the City PC had been Thomas Ede (William Eade)?

In a well-known list of Swanson there is the numeral 201 after the names of Nichols and Chapman.

Thomas Ede (also called William Eade), a witness who played a role in both cases, claimed at the end that he had seen Henry James.

Anderson:

“…but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.”

Perhaps Ede (Eade) learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

In the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court, I found the following:

1843 WILLIAM EADE (police constable D 67.)
1843 WILLIAM EADE . I am a policeman. I was in Great James-street
1849 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 125)
1857 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE . (City Policeman, 78)
1860 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)
1864 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)

T H I S Eade worked for both departments? MET (D 67) and City Police?

D 67= MET?
125, 78, 146= City Police?

So there were these numbers in both departments? City Policeman 201 and MET Whitechapel H-Division, H 201. Course C201, K201, E201…

These numbers were always. For example: H-Divison, PC Weeks H201 and later PC Bridle H201

They changed the name Thomas Ede to a name of an Ex-Constable (William Eade)?

To Ede (Eade):

Was he a former Policeman? Perhaps for both departments, wearing the numeral 201 and once living or working in Mitre Square?

Were there any connections to the Jewish Population?

There were probably Jewish Policemen:
Isaac Jacobs, C 201
PC Abrahams (acting as German interpreter—Oct 6th 1894)

What was his age in 1888?

If Ede (Eade) had been the witness and he was an Ex- Policeman (City Police and/or MET) other people might have been confused the issue with PC Watkins.

An Ex-Policeman (with Jewish connections) and a Police Seaside Home would also fit well.

Best Regards

Hypothetical question

What would have happened if your jewish Pc Eade whilst on duty had actually witnessed the murder and the killer was a jew and Pc Eade was the only witness would he have still refused to testify as a police officer for the same reasons ? I think not somehow.

I think people should start to realise that the marginalia and the identification procedure, and Andersons book comments do not stand up to close scrutiny by a country mile.

[S.Brett]

In addition, there was already an ex-police officer at the Mitre Square, George Morris.

I mean a former PC Ede (Eade).

Thank for your answer.

[Monty]

Hello!

Is it possible that the City PC had been Thomas Ede (William Eade)?

In a well-known list of Swanson there is the numeral 201 after the names of Nichols and Chapman.

Thomas Ede (also called William Eade), a witness who played a role in both cases, claimed at the end that he had seen Henry James.

Anderson:

“…but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.”

Perhaps Ede (Eade) learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

In the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court, I found the following:

1843 WILLIAM EADE (police constable D 67.)
1843 WILLIAM EADE . I am a policeman. I was in Great James-street
1849 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 125)
1857 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE . (City Policeman, 78)
1860 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)
1864 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)

T H I S Eade worked for both departments? MET (D 67) and City Police?

D 67= MET?
125, 78, 146= City Police?

So there were these numbers in both departments? City Policeman 201 and MET Whitechapel H-Division, H 201. Course C201, K201, E201…

These numbers were always. For example: H-Divison, PC Weeks H201 and later PC Bridle H201

They changed the name Thomas Ede to a name of an Ex-Constable (William Eade)?

To Ede (Eade):

Was he a former Policeman? Perhaps for both departments, wearing the numeral 201 and once living or working in Mitre Square?

Were there any connections to the Jewish Population?

There were probably Jewish Policemen:
Isaac Jacobs, C 201
PC Abrahams (acting as German interpreter—Oct 6th 1894)

What was his age in 1888?

If Ede (Eade) had been the witness and he was an Ex- Policeman (City Police and/or MET) other people might have been confused the issue with PC Watkins.

An Ex-Policeman (with Jewish connections) and a Police Seaside Home would also fit well.

Best Regards

Hi S.Brett,

D Division was Marylebone. The Eade PCs you name (assuming the latter two are indeed the same PC -as they had the same collar number I suspect they are) would have been retired by 1888.

Morris was Met PC. not City.

Monty

[S.Brett]

Thanks Monty!

Yes, Morris was MET.

Imagine:

Thomas Ede has seen a suspect on the morning of the 8th September 1888. A man, coming from near Buck´s Row, fleeing in the direction of Hanbury Street? With a knife in his trouser pocket?

Serialkillers often visit former crime scenes.

Mary Ann Nichol´s Inquest

“On Saturday morning, 8th September, Ede was coming down Cambridge Heath Road when he saw a man on the opposite side of the road, just outside the Forester's Arms public house. The man's peculiar appearance made Ede look at him; he appeared to have a wooden arm which was hanging at his side. The man then put his hand down, revealing about four inches of knife-blade sticking out of his trouser pocket. There were three other men present who were also watching and Ede spoke to them. He then followed the man who, realising he was being followed, quickened his pace before being lost under some railway arches.”

“The man was described as being about 5ft 8in in height, about 35 years of age with a dark moustache and whiskers. He wore a double peaked cap, dark brown jacket and a pair of overalls and dark trousers. He walked as though he had a stiff knee and had 'a fearful look about the eyes'. He had the appearance of a mechanic (he was not muscular) and the overalls were clean. Ede could not tell what sort of knife it was.”

“He was later recalled to the inquest (this time as William Eade) to state that he had since seen the man again and had ascertained that he was one Henry James, a well-known but harmless local lunatic. James did not, incidentally, have a wooden arm.”

Ede: “He wore a double peaked cap”
The witnesses Schwartz and Lawende watched a man with one peak on his cap.
Major Henry Smith (City Police): “… Cap with two peaks”

Ede: “He walked as though he had a stiff knee”
Schwartz: “… a man walking as if partially intoxicated”
(Btw.: Henry James and Charles Ludwig had a stiff knee/leg)

If Ede had been a former constable of the City Police (as Eade), now living between two cultures, spending some time with Jewish friends, he could have changed his mind when he learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. Perhaps he depended on their gullibility.

Is there any chance that the reference is to Halse who stopped the two blokes for questioning and then let them go?

Cheers.
LC

Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am? Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue.

Was Halse Jewish by the way? I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname.

[Monty]

Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am? Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue.

Was Halse Jewish by the way? I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname.

Hi Mac,

No, Halse wasnt Jewish.

Born in Abbots Langley, Herts, Son of a printer, was an apprentice printer prior to joining the force.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac,

No, Halse wasnt Jewish.

Born in Abbots Langley, Herts, Son of a printer, was an apprentice printer prior to joining the force.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Thanks for the info.

[lynn cates]

Halse

Hello Mac. Thanks.

"Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am?"

Well, he was with two other officers. I don't believe they testified to that.

"Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue."

Purportedly he was looking for the perpetrator. I might have stayed just inside the eastern edge of the C of L. On the other hand, an odd sight, sound, or even a hunch, might divert one.

"Was Halse Jewish by the way?"

I doubt it.

"I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name . . ."

Of course, it is much in favour with Gentiles, too.

" . . . and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname."

Indeed? What would the original be?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Halses father was also a Halse, plus Daniel was baptised I believe.

The chances of him being Jewish are remote.

The 3 DCs were in Aldgate. They fanned out in differing directions at Mitre Square, so no, no hunch.

Monty