"City PC"

[lynn cates]

May the farce be with you.

Hello Jonathan. Thanks.

"The City PC witness, created by Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version of his 'Home Office Report', refers to Joseph Lawende."

Well, I can certainly live with that.

But why did Mac make him into a PC? Would not those for whom the story was intended be able to check at Old Jewry and discover the farce?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sacking

Hello Neil, Michael. I'm wondering if a sacking isn't a tad severe for taking a wee dram on occasion? I would have thought some other form of chastisement?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

I'm no expert, but I'd suggest it was an accumulation of such incidents that would do a fellow in.

Mike

[lynn cates]

infractions

Hello Michael. Thanks. Sound reasoning.

Do we know how many infractions he incurred previously?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

New Thread

Bridewell,

Interesting argument you've begun. I tend to think Harvey got into a bit of trouble for NOT seeing anything. And if that is tied to suspicion of being in his cups, but without proof, I can imagine a violation a year later would have been the final straw. His timing to the Square is so close to the death of Eddowes that an observant cop would have been believed to have noticed something, yet he didn't. Not saying he should have, but two murders in a night and nothing? That brings me to another point that I will start a new thread about.

Mike

Thanks for that, Mike. I entirely accept the point (Trevor's?) about Mitre Square not being part of his beat, but I just think that, human nature being what it is, Harvey would have shone his lantern into the Square. There is also a sound practical reason for doing so - he was about to turn his back on Mitre Square and whoever might be lurking within it. It's what I would have done - checked for anyone skulking about - self-preservation as much as anything.

What's the new thread called by the way?

Regards, Bridewell.

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks. Sound reasoning.

Do we know how many infractions he incurred previously?

I know nothing. I only surmise. There seems to have been some odd police situations going on at that time with individual cops that just ain't kosher. We have this incident with Harvey, or non-incident where he saw nothing. We have the Jewish policeman Thomas Brown shooting himself after resigning, and being, seemingly connected to his not showing up for work about the evening Kelly was killed. If I'm not mistaken, Watkins was somewhat derelict too on the evening of Eddowes murder as well. I suggest that were anyone to follow any beat policeman with a hidden camera, they would find some form of dereliction every single night, going by the book, in the same way that every footballer or rugby player commits a breach of the rules nearly every game and that only in 90 or 80 minute duty shifts!

I absolutely believe that cops were fired/fined/forced to resign, whatever, because shite runs downhill and someone needs to be punished.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Harvey would have shone his lantern into the Square. There is also a sound practical reason for doing so - he was about to turn his back on Mitre Square and whoever might be lurking within it. It's what I would have done - checked for anyone skulking about - self-preservation as much as anything.

Absolutely agree! A little child, fearful of the bogey man, will shine a light into every nook and cranny. An adult, with a killer about who hasn't the fear to do so, must be either apathetic or drunk. I can think of no other reasons not to, and I suspect his superiors felt something similar.

Mike

[lynn cates]

minor infractions

Hello Michael. You mean minor infractions? I daresay.

Do those usually result in sacking?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

killer about

Hello (again) Michael.

"An adult, with a killer about . . . "

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Good point, Lynn.

Makes you wonder where all the plain clothes coppers and Vigilante groups were patrolling in large numbers?

[lynn cates]

doubts

Hello Jon. Thanks.

As a young lad, I was fascinated when I learned that "Jack pulled off the murder in Mitre square with vigilance people and coppers all about him."

I wondered how this could be so.

Now I 'ave me doubts.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

A closely-trimmed beard

To Lynn

The proof is in Mac's success.

Mac gambled that Griffiths and Sims would not check, and they didn't. It was not that easy, for one thing, to check.

Major Griffiths, 1898:

' ... One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum. This man was said to resemble the murderer by the one person who got a glimpse of him - the police-constable in Mitre Court.'

Sims, 1907:

' ... Various witnesses who had seen a man conversing with a woman who was soon afterwards found murdered said that he was a well-dressed man with a black moustache. Others described him as a man with a closely-trimmed beard ... The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.'

That hid Druitt, while taking care of Sims' vanity.

In his 1914 memoirs Mac tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube to quash Anderson and his clincher eyewitness:

' ... But the lust for blood was unsatisfied. The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming.'

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. You mean minor infractions? I daresay.

Do those usually result in sacking?

With the police, I have no idea. In the military (USAF), they were super strict about every little thing. If you missed work, you lost a grade level and were made to do all sorts of unsavory things on your days off. If you were even a second late, you received a commander's punishment which usually meant you had to paint something on your days off for a one-time shot, but no reduction in pay grade. Imagine, however, not showing up to duty during a time when you had to be concerned about the buck being passed down to you should the crap hit the fan because of JTR.

Mike

[lynn cates]

gullibility

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. Perhaps he depended on their gullibility.

Is there any chance that the reference is to Halse who stopped the two blokes for questioning and then let them go?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

One who had not struck in about 3 weeks, and whose previous killings were done in Whitechapel, not Aldgate.

Well, call me cautious, but if I were in modern New York City, and I knew there was a one of a kind killer a mere 15 minutes by foot from me (I walk quickly), and there was a lot of heat on the police, I'd be checking things out. Plus, I would imagine all sorts of things lurking about anyway, regardless of a killer being about.

Mike