"City PC"

[Bridewell]

The Whistle

Who do you think Robert Sagar had in mind when he wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

At the risk of undermining my own argument, it would suggest that the officer was not a City PC as they had rattles, not whistles. If the story has a basis in truth, however, it would point towards Watkins as the Pc and Morris as the whistle-blower. Monty, I don't suppose there is a record of any reason for Watkins' resignation- probably didn't have to give one?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Seaside Home

Hello Harry. Doubt they would accommodate someone not on their force.

I still like the Evans hypothesis for the Seaside Home.

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Neil,

Gavin Bromley promotes Harvey's candidacy in his article, the name of which escapes me, but is very very good.

I think the articles you mean are "City Beat I" and "City Beat II" in Ripperologist No. 74 (December 2006) and Ripperologist No. 75 (January 2007).

I agtree they are "very, very good" but anyone reading them will feel they are doing an SAT math exam. I -- literally -- needed a stop-watch when I edited them ages ago.

Don.

[lynn cates]

dissertation

Hello Don. Hmm, sounds like material for the dissertations section.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The Viewing

Doubt they would accommodate someone not on their force.

Cheers.
LC

Did not the Seaside Home referred to evolve into the 1890 Southern Police Convalescent Home, one of only two in the country, the other being the Northern Police Convalescent Home in Harrogate?

http://www.stgeorgesharrogate.org/stg33standrews.htm

It's not the exclusive preserve of the Metropolitan Police now. Was it ever? If so when did the change come about?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Trevor Marriott]

My suspicion is Macnaghten erred.

I see no reason to keep it quiet once Harvey was dismissed. I also do not understand the delay in dismissal nor the fact it is recorded in the order book with no reference to a hearing (Unlike Hutt who was summonds to a hearing infront of Smith)

We have a responsibility here to cover all possibilities. So before we speculate its best to evaluate.

Harveys record, order books and lack of evidence supporting the idea he saw something, indicates just that. Harvey wasn't the City PC refered to.

Monty

I am inclined to agree with you Macnaghten made another boo boo one of many in the memo.

Fo those who suggest Harvery saw the murder taking place and panicked. For that to have happened given the lighting conditions he would have to have almost been on top of them, as his beat didnt take him into the square proper. Best he could have hoped for may have seen the outliine of two shadowy figures. After all the murder location. was the darkest part of the square.

However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street.

[lynn cates]

insufficient data

Hello Colin. I think those questions are better asked of our retired coppers. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Watkins

Hello Trevor.

"However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street."

But would he not have bumped into Watkins in that case?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

I am inclined to agree with you Macnaghten made another boo boo one of many in the memo.

Fo those who suggest Harvery saw the murder taking place and panicked. For that to have happened given the lighting conditions he would have to have almost been on top of them, as his beat didnt take him into the square proper. Best he could have hoped for may have seen the outliine of two shadowy figures. After all the murder location. was the darkest part of the square.

However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street.

Trevor has, on the whole summed up my take on this.

The key point in Bromleys article is that the killer had left by the time Harvey had reached the end of Church Passage. Whilst I'm not completely sold on that I am willing to sway with it.

The Seaside home would be for serving Officers only.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor.

"However my money is on the killer seeing and hearing Harvey coming down the passage giving him time to make good his escape via Mitre Street."

But would he not have bumped into Watkins in that case?

Cheers.
LC

Nope not by my calculations

[lynn cates]

"Oops!"

Hello Trevor. OK, how did he avoid him?

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

The beat cop is Lawende inverted

To Lynn

The City PC witness, created by Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version of his 'Home Office Report', refers to Joseph Lawende.

Or rather is Lawende hidden by reversing the ethnicity of the witness, actually Lawende a Jew, and the suspect, a Gentile-featured prole.

Macnaghten did this because he knew that Griffiths, and certainly Sims would recall some kind of eyewitness who saw the fiend.

In Sims, 1907, the famous writer claims that the City PC actually saw the Polish Jew suspect later, arguably the locus for Anderson misremebering the Sadler-Lawende 'confrontation' -- but correctly recalling that it was a Jewish witness not a beat cop.

The reason Mac pulled back from his fictionalised Lawende -- the witness because he saw a man who resembled Druitt -- in his 1914 memoirs, is because they were written partly to debunk Anderson's of four years before, eg. there was no super-witness, the Ripper was a Gentile not a Hebrew, he had never been 'detained' in a madhouse, and we had never heard of him for 'some years after' he took his own life.

[Bridewell]

The Homes

The Seaside home would be for serving Officers only.

Hi Monty,

Was that definitely the case? I only ask because the modern Police Convalescent Homes also accommodate retired officers, but for a maximum of one week, rather than the two permissible for those still serving.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

I was informed so Colin, however I'm willing to be corrected.

Monty

[The Good Michael]

Bridewell,

Interesting argument you've begun. I tend to think Harvey got into a bit of trouble for NOT seeing anything. And if that is tied to suspicion of being in his cups, but without proof, I can imagine a violation a year later would have been the final straw. His timing to the Square is so close to the death of Eddowes that an observant cop would have been believed to have noticed something, yet he didn't. Not saying he should have, but two murders in a night and nothing? That brings me to another point that I will start a new thread about.

Mike