"City PC"

[Bridewell]

Whenever there is discussion of Anderson's witness and/or the Marginalia, the two names which constantly recur (understandably so) are Israel Schwartz & Joseph Lawende. Yet, according to MacNaghten:

"Nobody ever saw the Whitechapel Murderer unless possibly it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" (my italics).

Every time I raise it (and, yes, I am an Aberconway bore) I am assured that Sir MM has to be either misinformed, mistaken or attempting to mislead, so

"the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square"

can be either

(a) a Polish Jewish cigarette salesman on Dukes Place or
(b) a Hungarian Jew of theatrical appearance on Berner St, but definitely not
(c) James Harvey, "the City PC who was on a beat near Mitre Square" and who, in July 1889, for reasons unknown, was dismissed.

On another thread we're prepared to consider the possibility of Schwartz being a fraud. Should we not also give serious consideration to the possibility that Harvey witnessed the murder of Kate Eddowes - and funked it? Okay, so he (probably) wasn't Jewish, but he was a City PC and he was on a beat near Mitre Square - and he was dismissed a few months later.

Watkins' beat included Mitre Square, so "near" doesn't fit. Are there any other contenders? If not, why does MacNaghten have to be either deluded, misled, forgetful, devious or mendacious? Why can't he just be telling the truth as he believed it to be?

Okay. I have my finger on the Ejector Seat button ready for a quick exit, but set fazers on stun please!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Harry the Hawker]

I may only be an engineer (and not a magician) captain, but I think there is much in what you say. I have often pondered this enigma, and wondered what details of this sighting may once have been given in the lost City Police archives.

Cheers!
'Arry

[Bridewell]

Thanks

I may only be an engineer (and not a magician) captain, but I think there is much in what you say. I have often pondered this enigma, and wondered what details of this sighting may once have been given in the lost City Police archives.

Cheers!
'Arry

Thanks, Harry. At least there's one person who doesn't think me a swivel-eyed looney for suggesting this. That's a great comfort, believe me!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Gavin Bromley promotes Harveys candidacy in his article the name of which escapes me but is very very good.

As you state, it was on Watkins beat Eddowes was found.

The 'contenders' apart from Harvey are PCs, George Simmons and Louis Robinson. These Guys were on beat duty prior to the 9.45pm switch to night duty.

After that the only other City PC we are aware of who patrolled within that area was PC Frederick Holland.

It must be born in mind Harveys beat is the most eastertly for a City PC.

Monty

[lynn cates]

stories

Hello Colin. There has been speculation that Harvey saw the murder occur as he neared the end of Church passage. It was thought that he was frightened and went back out again. If he later admitted this to his superiors, that would (perhaps) explain his dismissal.

But for my part, if this had occurred, it seems that later he would not have been able to hide the fact when apprised of the murder.

I have also seen the same claim for Watkins. It's all possible but I don't lean much weight on either.

But I would still like to know why Harvey was sacked.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Gavin Bromley promotes Harveys candidacy in his article the name of which escapes me but is very very good.

As you state, it was on Watkins beat Eddowes was found.

The 'contenders' apart from Harvey are PCs, George Simmons and Louis Robinson. These Guys were on beat duty prior to the 9.45pm switch to night duty.

After that the only other City PC we are aware of who patrolled within that area was PC Frederick Holland.

It must be born in mind Harveys beat is the most easterly for a City PC.

Monty

Thanks, Monty. What, if anything, do you see as the significance of Harvey's being the most easterly beat?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

So why take almost a year to sack Harvey? And Watkins resigned.

Contrary to belief, Harveys dismissal is noted. However the reason why is not given. He is noted as being dismissed with a fellow PC and reasons for his dismissal are not given either, which is normal for the monthly returns.

Is other words, his dismissal is seemingly routine and is most likey tied to drink, judging by his record.

Monty

[Wickerman]

Who do you think Robert Sagar had in mind when he wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

taking his time

Hello Neil. Whilst not espousing that theory myself, the reasoning would be that it took that long to confess it. Conscience, etc.

From my view, IF he had seen the murder, he would have been quite shaken and, later, when told of it, could not conceal that fact.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

editor

Hello Jon.

"Who do you think Robert Sagar had in mind when he wrote this:

"At 1:45 a. m. she was dead. A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body. He blew his whistle,..."

Umm, his editor? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Thanks, Monty. What, if anything, do you see as the significance of Harvey's being the most easterly beat?

Regards, Bridewell.

Well, being the most easterly, the chances of a murder happening on Harveys beat was higher of any other City PC.

Harvey had, what? 12 years experience by 88. He was a seasoned PC who knew the score. I suspect he was more aware during that period of his career than at any other stage.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Harvey

Hello Colin. There has been speculation that Harvey saw the murder occur as he neared the end of Church passage. It was thought that he was frightened and went back out again. If he later admitted this to his superiors, that would (perhaps) explain his dismissal.

That's what I'm thinking too.

But for my part, if this had occurred, it seems that later he would not have been able to hide the fact when apprised of the murder.

He certainly shouldn't have hidden the fact, if indeed that's what he did. To have done so would have been - a sacking offence.

But I would still like to know why Harvey was sacked.

Not on his record apparently. I wonder if the Acting Commissioner's diaries survive. Has anyone checked?

If we accept that Lawende and his companions did see a man and woman talking in Church Passage at 1.35am - and there seems no reason to disbelieve them - where did that couple go and how soon afterwards? There were only two possible exits, weren't there? Towards Dukes Place & Pc Harvey, or towards Mitre Square & the murder scene? None of Harvey, Lawende, Levy or Harris saw them emerge onto Dukes Place - which surely they would have mentioned as it would have meant that the woman wasn't Eddowes. I suggest that they went into Mitre Square where, if the woman was Eddowes, he murdered her or, if she wasn't Eddowes, they encountered JtR about his business. For me the likelihood is that the three Jews went their separate ways, the man and woman walked along Church Passage towards Mitre Square followed 2 - 4 minutes later by Pc Harvey who said he saw and heard nothing at all. Someone sure as hell disturbed JtR. If the woman wasn't Eddowes it was her and her male companion. If the woman was Eddowes it was Pc James Harvey.

My suspicion is that senior officers within the City of London eventually concluded that Harvey simply must have seen or heard something, and confronted him with that belief; also that rumours of such a confrontation reached the ears of certain officers within the Metropolitan Police - & that those rumours are the substance behind MacNaghten's comment in the Aberconway version of the MM.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Harry the Hawker]

And another thing

I forgot to mention viz this subject: could it somehow tie in with Swanson's reference to the Seaside Home? In that, according to Swanson, the suspect was "sent" to be identified to the seaside home. An ex City copper could have been staying at such a home?
Does make me wonder.

Cheers!
'Arry

[lynn cates]

diaries

Hello Colin. I've heard no talk about any such diaries surviving. It would be lovely, though.

Wish I knew if Mac were talking through his hat.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

My suspicion is Macnaghten erred.

I see no reason to keep it quiet once Harvey was dismissed. I also do not understand the delay in dismissal nor the fact it is recorded in the order book with no reference to a hearing (Unlike Hutt who was summonds to a hearing infront of Smith)

We have a responsibility here to cover all possibilities. So before we speculate its best to evaluate.

Harveys record, order books and lack of evidence supporting the idea he saw something, indicates just that. Harvey wasn't the City PC refered to.

Monty