Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Cogidubnus]

Grrrr

At about 5.10am " foreign looking man" and his lady enter the yard at the back of 31 Hanbury st ( or adjacent yard )

Did Number 31 have a front door like Number 29, that was unlocked so that there was easy access from Hanbury Street to the backyard?

Frustratingly I seem to recall a thread wherein it was mentioned that all the backyard spaces on this side of the road were different, and some were built over completely...

Not sure but I have a hunch that at some time 31 and 33 had a factory or the like where the backyard should have been, but can't recall if this is right or the dates...I seem to recall some detailed maps being posted too, but where oh where is that dammed thread when you need it?

Dave

[lynn cates]

situation

Hello Dave. I know that feeling.

However, your main point works well--those other places need to have the passage open at all times like #29 in order for a similar situation to unfold with a punter and prostitute. Could be, but not too likely.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Did Number 31 have a front door like Number 29, that was unlocked so that there was easy access from Hanbury Street to the backyard?

Frustratingly I seem to recall a thread wherein it was mentioned that all the backyard spaces on this side of the road were different, and some were built over completely...

Not sure but I have a hunch that at some time 31 and 33 had a factory or the like where the backyard should have been, but can't recall if this is right or the dates...I seem to recall some detailed maps being posted too, but where oh where is that dammed thread when you need it?

Dave

Hi Dave ,
that would be great to know ... wasn't there also some sort of a kerfuffle over blood on an adjacent fence that turned out to be urine ? was that maybe, 25 Hanbury street, Right next door to cadosh ? he said he didn't really know where the sound's emanated from .. could it have been almost anywhere in the immediate vicinity , especially given the crisp morning air and the natural acoustics of the location ?

cheers
moonbegger.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbeggar...yes I think that was the account of Laura Sickings at Number 25 - wherein it was initially surmised the killer may have climbed the fences between the gardens prior to knocking his bloodstained coat on the fence at 25 whilst leaving bloodstained paper in the yard...apparently this tale was discredited by Inspector Chandler who investigated and said the blood mark on the fence was a urine stain, and the bloodstained paper didn't exist...

I'll look again for that elusive thread when I get a chance

Best wishes

Dave

[Bridewell]

In effect the couple was standing in front of number 31 Hanbury Street

"They were talking together, and were close against the shutters of No.29".

ergo they were not standing in front of No.31.

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".

This sounds more like before the event than after to me.

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

So she was sure which quarter had just chimed?

Dave

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Jon.

"the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence"

As am I. I think she made a hash of the time, but that is easy to do.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Dave. Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

So she was sure which quarter had just chimed?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Impossible to know, but she said she was:

"It was about 5.30. She was certain of the time, as the brewer's clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street".

i know it's usual to assume that Mrs Long was wrong by15 minutes, but she had only just left home on Church Row, so I find it hard to believe that she was that far out.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Colin. But if she had just left home (at 5.00, she said), why was a 10-15 minute walk stretched into half an hour?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Bridewell,

Church Street.

Regards,

Simon

[moonbegger]

"They were talking together, and were close against the shutters of No.29".

ergo they were not standing in front of No.31.

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".

This sounds more like before the event than after to me.

Mrs Long was unsure of the man's age and of things like the colour of his coat. She was certain of only two things: that the time was only just after 5.30, and that the woman was the one whose body she later saw in the mortuary (i.e. Chapman). Yes, a witness can be certain and still be mistaken, but the coroner was clearly greatly impressed by her evidence.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell .
You are quoting the Times newspaper .. who seem to ham it up a bit and get it wrong .. in the inquest report what she actually said was " I saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking. The man's back was turned towards Brick-lane, and the woman's was towards the market. They were standing only a few yards nearer Brick-lane from 29, Hanbury-street". That puts them outside 31 Hanbury street .
She also said she didn't pay them much attention .. but was able to ID Annies pitiful remains almost 5 days after the event ( i suggest Not )
Also she arrived at work at the market just after 5.35 ..Dont think it would have taken her 25 mins to walk down Hanbury street, a journey she had made many times , and i'm guessing she would have been able to distinguish the 4 chimes of quarter past , to the 8 chimes of half past .
and the " will you " and "yes" comments could have pertained to absolutely Anything .. Will you meet me again tonight , "yes" Will you come to my birthday party "yes " this part is total conjecture .. like a piece of wet clay you can mould it whatever way you wish .

cheers
moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

2 points

Hello MB.

"Also she arrived at work at the market just after 5.35. Don't think it would have taken her 25 mins to walk down Hanbury street, a journey she had made many times"

Did she look at the clock then or merely interpolate 5 minutes to #29?

"and I'm guessing she would have been able to distinguish the 4 chimes of quarter past, to the 8 chimes of half past."

Indeed. But only if she were attending. We have a clock at my university which chimes precisely as Big Ben. Many and many times I have been preoccupied and been off by a quarter hour or more.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

If you haven't a watch (as I didn't in my younger years) you tend to fear the worst, especially if you're heading for work...I suspect she was fairly self-absorbed during her journey, trundling along on autopilot (as one does), heard the end of the clock's striking, assumed the worst, and made a conscious effort to speed up...it may even have been this that woke her to her surroundings and the people around her, and made her more conscious about what was happening in Hanbury Street than she otherwise would've been...

As Lynn posits, if she left home at 5am as usual, why did it take her nearly half an hour to cover a 10 to 15 minute walk? Unless you're suggesting she mistook the full hour chime (even less likely I'd have thought!)....

Like Lynn, I'd guess the time she arrived at the market was interpolated...she didn't get chaffed or bollocked, therefore she arrived on time...rather than early with a safety margin which is more likely the case...

OK I'm guessing (I hope intelligently)...but with the passing of years and in the absence of facts what else can one do?

Best wishes

Dave

[moonbegger]

Hi All .
In her statement she said " I got out about five o'clock, and I reached the Spitalfields Market a few minutes after half-past five." which tells me she new exactly how long it took that morning .. she wasn't shocked or bemused by the time issue , which tells me maybe she had to do something on the way , run a errand or whatever ..

cheers
moonbegger