Chapman and the thud on the fence

[lynn cates]

Annie

Hello K. Could be.

On the other hand, if you look at Mrs. Long's testimony, she describes Isenschmid precisely. Moreover, when he was taken into detention a half week later, he had a bruise on the head and a black eye.

Annie was a scrappy little lady.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Point...counterpoint...

I assume that the smell alone would have called his attention to what was there.

Whitechapel was a stinky place Phil, there was a privy in the yard (or next door at least) and a cat’s meat man in the front. I’m not sure a stinky smell would draw attention?

But I think we have enough points from the dissertation to establish at least a question mark over whether he did what he said he did. If he just briefly poked his head through the yard door, looking to his right to peek at the lock of the cellar door, he MIGHT not have seen Annie's corpse.

Agreed. I think he might have missed it.

On the other hand, if you look at Mrs. Long's testimony, she describes Isenschmid precisely. Moreover, when he was taken into detention a half week later, he had a bruise on the head and a black eye.

Annie was a scrappy little lady.

To be fair Lynn, Mrs. Long could have described JI but also many other Whitechapel denizens and the injuries could have come from anywhere. I think if an old, ill Annie roughed up her killer it would have shown on her hands or elsewhere. I don’t necessarily disagree with your JI contention, just throwing out some observations…



Greg

[Phil H]

Olfactory overload

I would have thought that the smell of a recently eviscerated corpse, a matter of inches below, would have been noticeable and quite distinct from raw cats' meat or human excrement. But I have no direct experience.

Also don't people become accustomed to the usual smells (or noises) of a familiar place and sort of block them out. So new smell...

Phil

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello Greg. Good point, well taken.

But I savour the possibilities here.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Lysol please...

I would have thought that the smell of a recently eviscerated corpse, a matter of inches below, would have been noticeable and quite distinct from raw cats' meat or human excrement. But I have no direct experience.

Also don't people become accustomed to the usual smells (or noises) of a familiar place and sort of block them out. So new smell...

You may be right here Phil. I, for one, am very averse to noxious odors of any kind and typically run when I encounter them. I also have no direct experience with smells of this type. I read somewhere about the horrible odors of Whitechapel so that stuck in my head...

But I savour the possibilities here.

I know you do Lynn and I understand. I find your JI hypothesis quite intriguing.

On a related note, I also wonder about the level of darkness during the supposed Richardson scene...


Greg

[Phil H]

I also wonder about the level of darkness during the supposed Richardson scene...

The murder of Chapman works better for me if she was killed some time (hours) before the usually assumed time of death.

This not only accounts for her movements better, but also the fact that "Jack" was happy to enter a yard overlooked by some many windows.

On the other hand, Richardson appears to have called once it was beginning to get light. But if he DID only glance at the cellar door (perhaps thinking of other things) - he might have missed the body.

Phil

[lynn cates]

Let tehre be light.

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"On a related note, I also wonder about the level of darkness during the supposed Richardson scene..."

Sunrise was around 5:20-5:30 on that day. It should have been light enough to see.

Of course, Richardson may not have been the best witness in the autumn of terror.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

[B]

On the other hand, Richardson appears to have called once it was beginning to get light. But if he DID only glance at the cellar door (perhaps thinking of other things) - he might have missed the body.

Phil

I think, Phil, he mentions he sat on the step with his feet on the yard floor.

To me, it's one or the other:

1) Richardson was entirely truthful (his inquest testimony), and due to his position in the yard he would have seen the body (no doubt).

2) Richardson fabricated at least a part of his story and actually didn't sit on the step at all. My approach in this scenario would be to ignore his testimony altogether, as quite clearly a huge and insurmountable dent would have been knocked into his statement.

I don't think there's a middle ground where it could be argued: "he lied in that respect, but we can rely on him here".

[RedBundy13]

Good Thread

Very interesting posts by everyone. I am in agreement with Phil H on why would Jack take the risk of ripping Annie at a time of day when he would have been more likely to have been caught? If it did happen at around 5:30am when the neighborhood was just starting to rise out of bed and leave their houses and JtR had taken that big of a risk to kill Annie Chapman, I just don't see how he wouldn't of been caught? Either on that crime or any of his others because it would show that his impulse to kill out weighed sense of self preservation. Because, really look at that scenario, look at how absolutely lucky he got. I mean someone supposedly walked out in a yard not more than 5' away from him (behind a fence) while he was murdering someone and he still was able to get away scott free afterwards. To me that whole situation just seems too impossible, if he was willing to take risks like that on one murder then he most likely would have done it on others and his luck would have run out. I mean he really couldn't have picked a worse time to do it. If he just would have waited till prob. around 7:30-8am most people would have been gone and on their way to work. And in my opinion he would have been much safer at that time.

[Bridewell]

If it did happen at around 5:30am when the neighborhood was just starting to rise out of bed and leave their houses and JtR had taken that big of a risk to kill Annie Chapman, I just don't see how he wouldn't of been caught?.[

Hi Red,

The yard door opened outwards. If he found a way of barricading the door for a few minutes, it would have significantly increased his chances. It was only just after daybreak too, so still quite gloomy.

I mean someone supposedly walked out in a yard not more than 5' away from him (behind a fence) while he was murdering someone and he still was able to get away scott free afterwards.

Cadosch supposedly heard something land against the fence where Chapman's body was found about half an hour later. If what he heard wasn't Chapman, what else was it likely to be? It would have to be something landing on top of Chapman's body if she was already dead.

Regards, Bridewell.