Chapman and the thud on the fence

[lynn cates]

accent

Hello Ruby. Although I don't believe in Jack, I do know that, around this time, a chap with a foreign accent was roaming London and staying in other people's houses.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

But it was not just about the "quality" of the light. From dawn on it would be getting consistently lighter, and we know that the house and its residents were waking up. Anyone going to a rear window of 29 and perhaps in neighbouring houses could have looked down into the yard.

People were about: Richardson had been into the yard; people like Cross/Lechmere and Paul (from the Nichols killing) would have been at or well on their way to work; Davis went into the yard not much later; Cadoche was about.

I cannot help but feel "Jack" would have been aware of that. If he was consistent with the murder of Nichols, he struck earlier and when it was darker and safer to do so. Bt that's just my opinion.

I think that would certainly be his ideal scenario. You gotta wonder how often his ideal situation arose, as except for Kelly he never had control of his scenes of the crime. I think counting on a late sunrise and possible cloud cover would have been idiotic, but if he had trouble finding a victim until it was late, or alternatively got stuck in the yard by the inhabitants of the house, the dimness and shadows could have given him cover until he could get out.

[Phil H]

...around this time, a chap with a foreign accent was roaming London and staying in other people's houses

In fact, thousands of them were, they were eastern Eurpoan immigrants, some Jewish, who were establishing themselves in London.

Phil

[lynn cates]

invitation

Hello Phil. Ah, but they were invited in.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

One thing that always got me, was that there was a water pump in the garden, but no indication that Jack had used it...of course, if it was dark when he went there, then he might not have seen it or remembered it.

Where was this water pump? I'm picturing it sort of in the middle of the yard, and if so, then I'm surprised people didn't hear more thuds and quite a bit of swearing if he didn't know it was there. The irony of rushing out responding to girlish shrieks of pain to find Jack the Ripper clutching his knee...

[Phil H]

Where was this water pump? I'm picturing it sort of in the middle of the yard, and if so, then I'm surprised people didn't hear more thuds and quite a bit of swearing if he didn't know it was there.

Even more problematic - and difficult - must have been the steps down into the basement. These appear to have stretched some way back into the yard, especially in photos taken from some angles. It may be a trick of perspective, but I don't think I have ever seen a proper, measured plan of the yard which would settle things.

It is worth looking at as many picture of the yard at No 29 to get an impression. In later pictures the depression occupied by the descending steps is covered by wooden sheets. "Jack" would not seem to have had a lot of room to manoeuvre between Annie and the steps behind him, not to mention the steps going UP to the backdoor. A very restricted space indeed.

Phil

[Errata]

Where was this water pump? I'm picturing it sort of in the middle of the yard, and if so, then I'm surprised people didn't hear more thuds and quite a bit of swearing if he didn't know it was there.

Even more problematic - and difficult - must have been the steps down into the basement. These appear to have stretched some way back into the yard, especially in photos taken from some angles. It may be a trick of perspective, but I don't think I have ever seen a proper, measured plan of the yard which would settle things.

It is worth looking at as many picture of the yard at No 29 to get an impression. In later pictures the depression occupied by the descending steps is covered by wooden sheets. "Jack" would not seem to have had a lot of room to manoeuvre between Annie and the steps behind him, not to mention the steps going UP to the backdoor. A very restricted space indeed.

Phil

In other words it may have been so quiet because Jack spent some time unconscious at the bottom of the stairs.

He HAD to have been there before, or there had to be a light source. Right?

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;177631]Hi Ruby

Good post and interesting points. My take is that Long probably saw JtR and Chapman, Cadosch heard chapman say no and then either heard her body brush up against the fence or JtR as he lowered her to the ground. Boot man did not see any body because she was not their yet.

Hi Abby -I've been at work, and couldn't reply before.

It depends whether you put any faith in the police pathologists of the time, or you think that they were often way off. Personally, even taking into account the lacunas in the science in 1888, I think that the doctors knew enough about food digestion and rigor mortis, taking into account the cold yard, to not be out by much (and the same goes for MJK's estimated TOD). You might not think that there is a huge difference between the pathologist's estimate and the witness statements , but infact it makes a very crucial difference.

The doctors' TOD fit with what we know of Annie's last meal and last sightings at the lodging house, and places the murder at a time which correlates with that of MJK. Most of all it means that Mrs Long's description of the supposed murderer must be wrong.

I don't know about you, but I can't find anything in common between Lawende's and Longs descriptions -one of them has to be wrong.

I couldn't choose before, because I am unwilling to choose arbitrarily between seemingly honest witnesses, and Long would appear to be supported by two independant statements.

I guess I go with the conventional view on this one as it seems to make the most sense

.
I agree totally that it can only make good sense that Cadocshe's and Long's statements dovetail ; although theoretically Cadosche heard a noise coming from 'anywhere' thereabouts, and Mrs Long's couple could have gone off 'anywhere' rather than the yard of 29, it was always too many coincidences to accept. Mr Richardson would have had the open door masking the body, the dark, and his attention fixed on the cellar and his boot -that is easier to explain, in my opinion.

So -to recapitulate -the precise details of Chapman's killer are important to us in honing an image of 'Jack' and his habits -if only to discount Long's description of the suspect. My scenario gives a logical expanation, without tarring anyone as 'false'.

[Tom_Wescott]

Great thread

Another good one from Ruby! It seems the question is - did the door hit the fence? The answer is almost certainly 'no'. It was not spring action, as most of the contemporary sketches show the door open. The fence seen in the Mason film was constructed years after the murders. As the door can be seen in sketches to 'free stand' (in other words, not swing out upon touch), it's difficult to imagine a prostitute and her client (let alone a murderer) would push the door with such force unnecessarily. It also seems that the recess between the door and the fence was ample enough not to allow the two to touch. A few other points...

* Cadosch was only in his 20's, so it can be presumed his hearing was good, so we have no reason to doubt his accuracy.
* As a next door neighbor, Cadosch would be able to identify particular sounds he was accustomed to hearing and would have commented on a door that hits his fence.
* The two people speaking came BEFORE the 'thud' on the fence, so the people had already entered the yard, therefore why would we expect to hear the door opening and hitting the fence a moment later?

Regarding Ruby's comment about the Ripper not having availed himself of the water pump, it's possible he did. In a rarely reported comment from James Kent, he describes a sheen over the body that made it appear to him that the killer had sprinkled water over Chapman. I personally think it's possible he peed on her. But it could also have been the way the light gleamed on her bodily fluids.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rubyretro]

Thanks for that Tom.

I must say that I have revised the idea about the door hitting the fence -mainly because, as someone pointed out, Cadosche would have been used to that noise.

However, it was the idea about the door, which led on to thinking that it was
an unknown prostitute and her client (seen by Mrs Long) who made the noises heard by Cadosche.

It has always been a seemingly incredible thing that if Cadosche could hear people in the yard of 29, then the people in the yard must have been aware of Cadosche -who had no reason to keep particularly quiet, and who could have shouted for help or investigated further at any moment, trapping Jack in a very tight spot.

It is alot to believe that if Annie was being robbed or felt in fear of a 'weirdo'
that she wouldn't have called for help, sensing that help was close to hand.
It is also gobsmacking that if Jack was aware that the body had fallen against the fence, and someone was on the other side, that he would hang about mutilating and take time to steal rings.

Doesn't it make more sense that the 'No !' could have been an exclamation of surprise emenating from someone seeing the body lying on the ground in the
half light. That person would have no idea that this was a 'Ripper' victim, nor that a uterus was missing. They -or the man - might very well bend down to get a closer look at the body though. Now, the spot was very tight and and
the body very close to the fence. I can't imagine an old prostitute being very lithe and supple and being able to squat down and stand up very easily, and if there was something to grab hold of wouldn't she use it ? There is also the shock of realising the quantity of blood around, and the fact that there were exposed intestines -so falling heavily against the fence figures in my opinion.

That these people would not want to be involved in Police reports coupled together fits, and I think that they would try not to make a noise -but finally they weren't murderers, nor did they risk hanging, so I don't think that they'd take the same care to be silent as Jack would.

I still think that my projected scenario fits the facts.

[Rubyretro]

PS : here's another thing : Cadosche says that he didn't hear any rustling of skirts.

I would expect Annie to have made some rustling pulling up her skirts for sex, or putting money away. The Ripper must have moved her skirts (whilst she was laying on the ground, trapping part of the garment under her). But my 'unknown woman' would surely have lifted her skirts free of the step, when going up and down them, so as not to trip up -and is less likely to have 'rustled'.

[mariab]

Jane Coram (who's a specialist in Victorian social life) once said that Victorian prostitutes frequently used fences as objects to lean upon during encounters, and that they in fact preferred leaning on fences than lying/kneeling on the (often wet) ground. I'm not necessary trying to claim that he killed Chapman against that fence, but this might explain the thud.

[Rubyretro]

Hi Maria -I don't think that there are any worries about explaining the thud
if it was Jack and Annie that Long saw and Cadosche heard.

The question mark over expaining the thud arises if we go rather with the police pathologists TOD (which fit rather with Chapman's last known movements and Jack's MO).

I've never had a problem believing that the witnesses were honest. It's not even a case of proving them 'mistaken', since Cadosche never even claimed to have heard 'Annie'. It's more a case of suggesting that the coroner added 2+2 and made 5.

[Errata]

PS : here's another thing : Cadosche says that he didn't hear any rustling of skirts.

I would expect Annie to have made some rustling pulling up her skirts for sex, or putting money away. The Ripper must have moved her skirts (whilst she was laying on the ground, trapping part of the garment under her). But my 'unknown woman' would surely have lifted her skirts free of the step, when going up and down them, so as not to trip up -and is less likely to have 'rustled'.

The "rustling" sound of skirts is dependent on a lot of things. Certainly the primary one being the fabric. Silk rustles, sateens, stiff cottons, stiff wools etc. Another factor is how many layers of skirts and underthings a person is wearing. There seems to be something of a "goldilocks" effect with this. One soft cotton skirt does not rustle, nor do more than three (not including petticoats or bloomers). Two or three seems to be the best way to get the sound. The last factor is what the skirts are rubbing against. Drawing up soft cotton skirts alone doesn't really do it, although it does with stiff cotton. If the skirts are rubbing against static producing material (like wool undergarments) they will. Dragging against stone will, wood will, metal will not.

Mrs. Chapman appears to have been wearing only a single skirt, but the material isn't mentioned. My guess would be that it would have been second (or third or fourth) hand, and any stiffness would have long since disappeared, but clearly I can't be sure. Unless she pulled her skirt up so it was dragging against the fence, I don't think it would make a noise. A skirt and two petticoats being lifted (if I remember correctly) does not rustle, but might make a sound similar to the "whump" sound of a sheet being snapped across a bed if she shook the skirts out, or sort of flicked them backwards.

[Nemo]

I would go with Cadosche's sketchy account at the inquest, which allows for some interpretation of the events that morning. However, outside the inquest he seemed a bit more sure of his facts...

Here's a slightly different account than that at the inquest by Cadosche, from Lloyds Weekly Newspaper September 9th 1888...

On visiting the house next door to the tragedy, 27, our representative saw Mr. Albert Cadosen, a carpenter, who resides there and works in Shoe-lane, Fleet-street. He says: I was not very well in the night and I went out into the back yard about 25 minutes past five. It was just getting daylight, and as I passed to the back of the yard I heard a sound as of two people up in the corner of the next yard. On coming back I heard some words which I did not catch, but I heard a woman say "No." Then I heard a kind of scuffle going on, and someone seemed to fall heavily on to the ground against the wooden partition which divided the yard, at the spot where the body was afterwards found. As I though it was some of the people belonging to the house, I passed into my own room, and took no further notice.

Also, as I understand it, the door had a spring that returned it to the closed position