Long and Lawende's descriptions...

[Fisherman]

Whoa there, Monty!

I pride myself of being clever enough not to mess with people who I may have good use of. It´s an altogether economic attitude that is normally quite useful.

Therefore you may take it that my phrasing was in no way an example of any provocative or "smart ass"-attitude. I just reflected over your reoccurring manner of many times throwing a word or two in, leaving the rest of us (or many of us, at least) in want for an explanation. And it IS annoying when one cannot see what you are hinting at - which was why I asked you to expand.

I normally very much like what I see of you out here, Monty, and I respect your knowledge. But I much prefer if we can mutually keep a light tone in an exchange, instead of treading very carefully at all times. Life is too short for that.

If you are having a bad day, I´m sorry. But maybe it can be some sort of relief to hear that you have read in intentions in my post that were never there. And maybe you´d care to provide the B now that you know ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Fisherman,

I am indeed having a bad day and reacted inappropriately.

I took it out on you and that was not fair. However, I like to consider myself a fair person who acknowledges when he has erred.

So I hope you accept my apology, I'm sorry for offloading on you.

Monty

[Fisherman]

That´s fine with me, Monty - and I´m sorry to hear about your miserable day. I do hope nothing´s really amiss!

No apologies needed, by the way - I am just happy to have things cleared up

All the best,
Fisherman

[GregBaron]

Rough sailors etc...

Hi gentlemen,

Thanks for the feedback. I think what I'm hearing is general agreement that Lawende could probably not distinguish a dock labourer from a sailor. I'm still not completely convinced and as Fisherman indicates a distinction was made at the inquest. The educated clerk is not who I was interested in here as I don't think he had anything to do with the murders but more specifically, Lawende said the character he saw was rough looking. I suppose we could debate what rough looking in 1888 Whitechapel meant but I feel sure it wouldn't mean an effete aristocrat....I believe Ben thinks this character could have been Hutchinson and we probably can't rule that out but I think we can rule out most other top suspects including a Polish Jew...........I'd be interested in Monty's opinion if his mood isn't too cantankerous......and I always welcome further discussion by Ben, Fisherman and all quite frankly...

Greg

[Rubyretro]

Maybe we're making an automatic assumption that -London being a port with
international ships docking- Lawende's 'sailor' had to be a sea faring man.

There were Kearley and Tonge warehouses in both Mitre Square and Bucks Row, and men employed on the Jam 'Ole Run (? From memory), who were transporting coal to Brentford (?) by canal, and surely might have a rather sailor/labourer appearance, since they never were in uniform but worked around water, and might have given a general 'impression' of sailor to an outsider.

[Archaic]

London Dock Workers c.1888

Hi everyone. Interesting thread.

Hi Ruby, that's a good point. I found a couple of period illustrations of London dock workers that might be of interest as they show various details of clothing, including hats and caps.

The first is of workers at the East India Docks in 1889.

The second is of the unemployed dock laborers gathered outside the West India Docks in 1886.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Jonathan H]

To GregBaron

Your claim that Lawende's description does not match either Grainger or Druitt inspires this counter-argument.

Lawende [seems] to have affirmed to William Grant, in 1895, as the man he saw with Eddowes, though his lawyer -- who believed he was the Ripper -- never publicly referred to such an event.

Secondly, Druitt: of medium height, lithe, athletic, and fair, does potentially match Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' quite snugly. And Macnaghten went to great lengths to obliterate this sighting -- and this witness -- in the public domain (via Griffiths, Sims, and his own memoirs).

[GregBaron]

Short and rough looking...

Thanks for replying Jonathan H....

I don't know about the Grainger thing and he was too tall.....Levy who got Eddowes height exactly right guessed the fellow was 3 inches higher...that would be a quite short 5'3".......I don't think Druitt fits these descriptions...he appears tall and thin and perhaps light of complexion but not of eyes, hair or mustache...........and far from rough looking.........he looks genteel to me......but I do know by Lawende's own mouth we can't rely on him too much and if he did identify Grainger...?......well, maybe all these white guys do look alike....Ha

Thanks for the illustrations Archaic, these are hard to find and do help a bit I think....

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thanks for replying Jonathan H....

I don't know about the Grainger thing and he was too tall.....Levy who got Eddowes height exactly right guessed the fellow was 3 inches higher...that would be a quite short 5'3".......I don't think Druitt fits these descriptions...he appears tall and thin and perhaps light of complexion but not of eyes, hair or mustache...........and far from rough looking.........he looks genteel to me......but I do know by Lawende's own mouth we can't rely on him too much and if he did identify Grainger...?......well, maybe all these white guys do look alike....Ha

Thanks for the illustrations Archaic, these are hard to find and do help a bit I think....

Greg

Levy did indeed estimate about 5'3.

However, Swanson's report says something like: "the description given from the two men coming out of the club is 5'7/5'8".

This begs the question: which two men?

Levy said 5'3; Lawende said 5'7/5'8; Harris didn't give a height (or at least he didn't at the inquest) and said: "the other two saw no more than me".

So, which two men agreed upon 5'7/5'8 as per Swanson's report?

There are a few possibilities here:

1) The two men didn't agree and it follows thus Swanson doctored the report.

2) The two men did agree and it follows Levy was lying at the inquest for reasons unknown to us.

3) The two men are not Lawende, Levy or Harris, i.e. Swanson is speaking of two other witnesses.

It also begs the question: why only two men and not all three? Harris claims they saw no more than him, so if they were able to estimate a height then why not Harris.

Perhaps the easiest solution is that two men did agree, i.e. Harris and Lawende, and Levy disagreed with them. Perhaps Harris wasn't called to the inquest because he would simply repeat Lawende's testimony.

Either way, Swanson was of the opinion that the most reliable witness statements placed JTR at 5'7/5'8. When placed in the context of 'appearance of a sailor', and what we know of Grainger's attack on Alice Graham, then Grainger has to be the no 1 suspect of those known to us. Has to be. Simple logic.

[GregBaron]

One never knows...

Hi all,

I realize Lawende is sacrosanct with most people but let’s just indulge in a little speculation with apologies in advance. As several of you mention, something squirrely was going on with these three gentlemen. Suppose they all recognized a fellow Jew like Koz and didn’t want to serve him up to the gallows cause they knew his sister or were friends with his brother etc.

Now, in a Hutchinsonian reversal, instead of serving up the ostentatious Jew, he delivers the generic, nasty white guy or rough looking Gentile shall we say. He quickly said he wouldn't recognize him again! Odd? This throws a whole new wrench in the works and puts them off the trail of the fiend.

Maybe this could explain the hesitancy of Levy and the silence of Harris? Maybe Lawende was the smoothest talker of the bunch? The salesman! How this segues into the later Grainger ID and the seaside home scenario I’m not sure?

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi all,

I realize Lawende is sacrosanct with most people but let’s just indulge in a little speculation with apologies in advance. As several of you mention, something squirrely was going on with these three gentlemen. Suppose they all recognized a fellow Jew like Koz and didn’t want to serve him up to the gallows cause they knew his sister or were friends with his brother etc.

Now, in a Hutchinsonian reversal, instead of serving up the ostentatious Jew, he delivers the generic, nasty white guy or rough looking Gentile shall we say. He quickly said he wouldn't recognize him again! Odd? This throws a whole new wrench in the works and puts them off the trail of the fiend.

Maybe this could explain the hesitancy of Levy and the silence of Harris? Maybe Lawende was the smoothest talker of the bunch? The salesman! How this segues into the later Grainger ID and the seaside home scenario I’m not sure?

Greg

Possible, but then you'd have to show that Lawende's personal ethics were less than satisfactory. I don't necessarily buy the 'a Jew wouldn't shop a Jew' theory.

[Wyatt Earp]

The description’s above show we have a short rough looking man. Fair. Perhaps stocky, strong, a fullback type(broad shoulders anyone?). This is our man, at least for Eddowes and most likely Stride. This is no Jew. I’d guess a short powerful psycho Jew hating Gentile. Speculative of course. But I’m sorry, this fellow is not Druitt(too tall dark and effete), Tumblety(please..a 6 foot homosexual)….Chapman(nope..too thin and tall and dandy-ish)….Le Grand (No….too tall and thin…..but a Le Grand accomplice….now that’s a theory!)….Grant/Grainger(again too tall and thin)….Hutchinson(smart military appearance…wideawake hat……..do we know anymore of his description?)….. We don’t know what Koz looked like but I doubt a fair faced rough neck. This could be Ada Wilson’s attacker….30 year old 5’5” red face.....So, I’m afraid this guy is nowhere on our radar screen……..throw out all the suspects……he’s fooled us all. Discard all pet theories. None of our top 10 list fit this description. What do we do now?

Greg, William Bury could match the witness descriptions. There is an "eyewitness account" of Bury given in the 2/12/89 Dundee Courier & Argos that can be used for reference.

Bury was about 5'3" which matches Long's height estimate and you'd want to take Levy's height estimate over Lawende's.

Long described someone dark and Bury's hair was "dark brown in colour." She thought he might have been a foreigner and Bury "presents features somewhat of the Jewish or Semitic type" when "viewed from the side" (another possibility here is that she was thrown by Bury's Midlands accent). Bury was only in his late twenties, which doesn't match her age estimate, but it seems precarious to hope for an accurate age estimate when she didn't have a good look at his face (and she didn't describe him as having gray hair or having flecks of gray in his hair, she only said he was "dark").

Lawende mentions a "fair moustache." Bury's hair was dark brown but "his moustache and whiskers" were "a shade lighter." It seems reasonable to suppose that light brown hair under a gaslight could pass for fair.

[GregBaron]

Sailor no Bury...

Greg, William Bury could match the witness descriptions. There is an "eyewitness account" of Bury given in the 2/12/89 Dundee Courier & Argos that can be used for reference.

Bury was about 5'3" which matches Long's height estimate and you'd want to take Levy's height estimate over Lawende's.

Long described someone dark and Bury's hair was "dark brown in colour." She thought he might have been a foreigner and Bury "presents features somewhat of the Jewish or Semitic type" when "viewed from the side" (another possibility here is that she was thrown by Bury's Midlands accent). Bury was only in his late twenties, which doesn't match her age estimate, but it seems precarious to hope for an accurate age estimate when she didn't have a good look at his face (and she didn't describe him as having gray hair or having flecks of gray in his hair, she only said he was "dark").

Lawende mentions a "fair moustache." Bury's hair was dark brown but "his moustache and whiskers" were "a shade lighter." It seems reasonable to suppose that light brown hair under a gaslight could pass for fair.

Perhaps Wyatt Earp but that's an awful lot of equivocations. I think it's a stretch to squeeze Bury into the sailor man box. He seems to fit more into the clerk descriptions a la with Stride. Plus I don't think he fits the rough looking adjective either. Rough looking might mean scarred or tattooed or something of the like. And sorry, he's nowhere near the Long description.

I return to my original thinking. The descriptions are all but useless...


Greg

[Wyatt Earp]

Plus I don't think he fits the rough looking adjective either. Rough looking might mean scarred or tattooed or something of the like.

Bury was evidently a violent alcoholic and so that would put him into play for being "rough-looking" as well. If the drink had taken a toll on his face, this would explain how he might have looked older than he really was.

And sorry, he's nowhere near the Long description.

This isn't a reasonable view given the description of Bury in the Dundee newspaper.

[John Wheat]

It's also worth noting that Bury supposedly looked older than his age.