Long and Lawende's descriptions...

[Ben]

Hi Greg,

I imagine quite a number of men in the district had the appearance of shabby-looking sailors. Dock labourers would certainly belong in this category, for instance.

All the best,
Ben

[GregBaron]

Do they really look the same?

I imagine quite a number of men in the district had the appearance of shabby-looking sailors. Dock labourers would certainly belong in this category, for instance.

Thanks Ben, that could be true but I don't know it to be true. Would Lawende say 'had the appearance of a sailor' instead of had the appearance of a dock labourer?

Perhaps I'll try to find some photos of these types and see if we find them distinguishable................?


Greg

[Ben]

Hi Greg,

It seemed to be the headgear that announced a sailorish appearance more than any other garment, although it would doubtless have been worn by dockers and other manual labourers. My suspicion is that a Dalston-based tobacconist such as Lawende was unlikely to have been terribly familiar with sailor fashions.

All the best,
Ben

[Monty]

Ben

You stating Lewande would not be familiar with what would have ultimately been one of his major customers?

Monty

[Ben]

Hi Monty,

No, but I doubt very much that he was able to distinguish a sailor from a dock labourer (for example) on the basis of a brief sighting.

Ben

[Monty]

And that is based on?

I was part of an experiment which was made at the very passage entrance. I stood there with another person whilst a 3rd party walked by.

To be fair to you, and to be brief, the conclusion made was not far from your own belief. However, it all depends on the exact location on the couple. Inside the passage or spilling out slightly into Duke Street.

If the former I can see how Lewande could have taking in much detail, unless he stoppped and stared.

Monty

[Sister Hyde]

To be fair to you, and to be brief, the conclusion made was not far from your own belief. However, it all depends on the exact location on the couple. Inside the passage or spilling out slightly into Duke Street.

If the former I can see how Lewande could have taking in much detail, unless he stoppped and stared.

Inside the passage he couldn't have seen ANYTHING, even if he had walked 2 meters away from them, I didn't forget what you said about how the passage was much darker and much tighter, so second option more likely. then it also depends on which side of the road they were walking (I still don't know that). Now I doubt he stopped and stared, especially since one of them had already complained about not being too keen on seeing such characters about so late.

[Ben]

And that is based on?

The fact that sailors did not dress in a fashion that rendered them immediately distinguishable from other manual labourers, such as dockers. I would suggest that even if Lawende had the time and inclination to scrutinize the man at length, any impression formed would still have been insufficient to pinpoint his likely occupation. Loose fitting jacket, reddish neckerchief and peaked cap all seem pretty generic to me, and not inconsistent with the likely attire of any member of the working class poor.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Bridewell:

"There are two witnesses who describe a man with the appearance of a sailor (Marshall re Stride & Lawende re Eddowes). "such as a sailor would wear" & "appearance of a sailor". Neither witness says his man was a sailor, only that such was his appearance. "

Actually, the peaked cap aside, Marshall said that his man most of all looked like a clerk. He even went out of his way to point out that the man did NOT look like sailor:

"[Coroner] What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
[Coroner] Not like a dock labourer? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a sailor? - No. "

The conversation as such may perhaps also elucidate the discussion inbetween posters here about the potential differences in appearance inbetween sailors and dock labourers. Apparently the coroner distinguished amongst them for some reason, although I cannot myself tell what that reason would be.

Anyways, Marshall did NOT think his man looked like a sailor - he thought he looked like a clerk wearing the same sort of headgear a sailor would wear.

The best,
Fisherman

[GregBaron]

Sailor or docksman..?

Hi guys,

If Lawende could determine 'fair' in mustache or complexion as well as red kerchief he must have been out by the street under the lamp and not back in the passage. Anyway, I've been looking for photos/sketches. The first two are laborers the second two sailors. Without being an expert on Victorian attire and thinking as some do that working class folks might put on whatever they could find, my personal inclination is that one could distinguish a sailor from a dock laborer. Giving that Lawende sold tobacco and as Monty mentioned these 'types' may have been among his customers, I think he might be inclined to notice a difference. I will continue to look for examples that might clarify....


Greg

[Ben]

my personal inclination is that one could distinguish a sailor from a dock laborer

I'd be very surprised if such a distinction was possible in this particular case, Greg.

Peaked caps and neckerchiefs were quite simply not unique to sailors, nor were loose-fitting jackets. In fact, your top photograph depicts two labourers dressed in a very similar fashion to Lawende's description, whereas the sailor photographs feature men wearing distinctive sailor shirts with hoods. A good deal of clothing from the period "did the rounds" amongst the labouring classes, and a cap that was once owned by a sailor could have been pawned and re-pawned many times since the original owner relinquished it.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Maybe itīs not as easy a question as we are looking for. On the one hand, the coronerīs questions to Marshall tell us that that the stereotypes "sailor" and "dock labourer" differed - otherwise, the coroner would not have asked the way he did.
Then again, this is perhaps only useful when we speak of stereotypes. If we look at Gregs pictures, I would never say that the two men in the top left picture looked like sailors, and I would never say that the men in sailorīs shirts look like dock labourers.
But the top right picture is another thing - these guys would pass as BOTH potential dock labourers and potential salty seadogs to me (the beards probably help, but there you are).

There would have been sailors in sailors uniforms around, tied to large shipping lines - but there would also have been sailors engaged in private business around, not wearing uniforms and perhaps being a lot more interchangable with the ordinary dock worker.
Then again, there would probably have been garments that were worn more exclusively by sailors, like lofty blouses and trousers with wide trouserlegs and so on. There must have been a reason for the coroner asking Marshall about both occupations. But likewise, there would probably have been many men around where it was not all that easy to pinpoint which of the camps they belonged to.

At the end of the day, though, we may be certain that Marshallīs man did not belong to EITHER of the camps, and thatīs what matters here. He was not a rough dock labourer or a sailor - he was a seemingly educated man who apparently did no hard labour, and who came across as a soft-spoken clerk.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

I guess Mayhew isnt popular here on this thread.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"I guess Mayhew isnt popular here on this thread."

For if he HAD been popular here, then ...?

You have an annoying way of leaving the B out when you say A, Monty! Does Henry Mayhew clear this up somehow? Pray tell us!

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Monty:

"I guess Mayhew isnt popular here on this thread."

For if he HAD been popular here, then ...?

You have an annoying way of leaving the B out when you say A, Monty! Does Henry Mayhew clear this up somehow? Pray tell us!

The best,
Fisherman

Apologies Fisherman,

I wasn't aware I had to walk you through what is such a simple post.

Maybe if you took less provokative tone I may entertain your request, untill that day arises I shall let you flounder.

Monty....who really can't be bothered with smart arses today, so be warned.