Who did Sarah See?

[Wickerman]

ok, they went up the court.....they were thus out of sight because he was still outside in dorset st, he followed, but they had already entered her room..... he does not mention seeing her entering a room, it looks like he was inside millers court for this next 45 mins, this is bloody odd.

The quote you used was taken from his police statement, but his press statement words it slightly different.

"I stood there for threequarters of an hour to see if they came down again, but they did not, and so I went away."

Which, if you choose to believe it tends to suggest he waited out on Dorset St. for 45 minutes because he said, "to see if they came down again", implies down the passage. He would hardly say that if he were inside the court.

So Hutchinson saw them disappear up the passage. Given that he knew Kelly and had given her money before he likely knew which room Kelly lived in.
I don't think Hutch would walk up the passage if he thought it likely he might interrupt a discrete "liason in the dark". He either gave them a couple of minutes to enter her room, or he heard the door close.

Anyway, Hutch then walks up and hovers around Kelly's door and turned the corner to see if there was any light or noise coming from inside.
Sarah Lewis may have seen someone standing there through a window, assuming she was inside No.2 at the time.

1.....if he was so suspicious of him, why didn't he scare him off to protect her

Because the man looked harmless, he said, "The man I saw did not look as though he would attack another one."

i'd also wait this long if i was JTR and thus waiting for BLOTCHY FACE to leave.

Why waste 45 minutes standing around when you could just as easily walk off to find another victim?, there were plenty to choose from.

it's very strange isn't it, but for GHs lie to remain constant over time, he has to tell the police how he stalked his victim and just change a few things around.

If GH was the killer he could just as easily go to ground like he had every other time, not go to the police.

he's telling us how he stalked her, we just have to remove LA DE DA from the equation, in other words, he simply heard her singing and thus hung around millers court on and off until 4am.

So long as Sarah Lewis saw a couple walk up the passage ahead of Hutchinson then the couple exists, whether the man was truely dressed like Hutchinson described or not, ...there was a man.

the Kennedy sighting at 3am ?.... it looks like rubbish too me, at the moment!

The time is wrong, that is all.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

1......JTR was looking for a victim that he could kill indoors and maybe MJK was the only woman that was willing or able to go indoors, or already indoors!

2......the weather that night was cold and rainy, so maybe there weren't that many other women around, especially at 2 to 4 am

3...... the only person seen that night with MJK was BLOTCHY FACE, I would be extremely careful of anything said by S.Lewis after the 10th and anything said by the Kennedy woman too, be very careful of anything printed by a tabloid newspaper, even if it is supposed to refer directly to an inquest..

4...... anyone that believes these two, (no insult intended), is tending to show that they're a wee bit Naive, because one of these jokers even thought that they saw MJK in the morning too.

5......these women will be very easily led and manipulated by a Hack journalist, miss- quoted etc, these lot in millers court are very unreliable witnesses, they'd say anything for 6 pence.

JTR is waiting outside at 2am because this is his 2nd visit, he first heard her singing earlier on at maybe 12.45 to 1am, he thus went straight down Millers court and waited outside her room yet again ( as he said)....he still heard sounds inside, so he went outside into Dorset st and waited there, keeping her door (when it swung open) in direct line of sight, AT ALL TIME.

he therefore didn't notice S.Lewis, who in turn saw him standing there as if he was on guard duty. BF probably left at 2.45, leaving JTR an extra 15 mins to make sure that she had gone to bed, this being confirmed, JTR left and returned at 4am.

JTR was returning to Whitechapel from Romford, where he lives, he also stays at the Victoria homes too, we will never be able to trace JTR because his name isn't GH, he's stolen someone elses I.D

1..... he only needs his signature in a log book in the Victoria Homes, and it's very convenient that he has not presently got any other I.D about his person, that is; if even the police bothered checking, he's just called GH, that's all.

2......the only I.D that i can think off, for a visitor from Essex who is looking for a job in london, is his birth certificate and he would never carry that, he has no passport, no credit cards, P45, NI number, public utility bills from home, nothing, but he might have a written job reference from a previous employer and that's easy to forge!

3.....a too young, stay at home family guy, pretended to be this witness years later, or maybe Reg lied about all of this instead

4......JTR would have only gone to the police if his story matched closely to how he stalked his victim and also, if he could not be rearrested and traced a year later !

but it's not as simple as this is it, because if this GH is JTR then he has a massive ego for sure, and somewhere in his description of events there is buried huge clues, we just dont know what they are yet.

i am very suspicious of the red handkerchief, because this is totally out of context, he has gone over the top by mentioning this..... uum, this probably means something that's very personal and obvious to him, but sod all to us lot.

it could be:-

1...... a bloody rag used to carry his organs etc, we need a code breaker on this forum to sort this lot out

finally, i'm very suspicious considering that he doesn't need to, that he's injected himself into this case, because i dont think being anti-semetic is enough of a reason, he could have easily have left another message, this is much more about his ego.

[lynn cates]

all good things come to those who wait

Hello Malcolm. Just out of curiosity, given that "JTR" waited from the end of September until the second week of November, why could he not wait one more day--until the weather cleared and the "ladies" returned outdoors? (Point #2 above.)

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Just out of curiosity, given that "JTR" waited from the end of September until the second week of November, why could he not wait one more day--until the weather cleared and the "ladies" returned outdoors? (Point #2 above.)

Cheers.
LC

it looks like there is a large gap because there was increased police presence on the street, but this died down in november.

this is the first murder where he was hoping to kill indoors, so he would have been far fussier than normal/ combine this with poor weather and you can see why he kept returning to Millers court.

the night of the double event was a disaster for JTR, so he was probably fed up killing on the street anyway, because to me it looks fairly obvious that the chalk was originally intended for the gates of Dutfields, but he was unable to lure Stride up the road.

this large gap between the two sets of murders, might also be due to JTR setting up a false I.D, plus moving into Victoria Homes as GH; getting ready for his final murder.

but due to looking like a sailor boy with regards to Eddowes, this tells me that he was already living in Whitechapel and not in Romford, because it looks like he went home to quickly change, thus he lost about 20 mins.

JTR was almost deffo a visitor to Whitechapel, but in this timeframe he probably returned home to the comforts of Romford, London was where he was searching for work and thus staying in lodgings, he has the perfect excuse for being here and also, the perfect excuse for not carrying too much I.D about his person.

he is effectively a tourist, like Tumbelty etc, he is on a safari trophy hunt, finally; i very much doubt that JTR is skint and unemployed, he probably has his own business, he could even be returning home to work during the week and taking a two week vacation for this final murder etc, we just dont know do we.

because if he went to the police as GH and then spoke to the press/ strolled around Petticoat Lane like Lord Muck, then he'll be very much ``Devil may care``, Highly motivated, brave, intelligent and extremely cunning, this isn't the type that's usually unemployed. he either fooled Abberline by acting like a Village Idiot, or as a ``shy nerd``, he was definitely not a street thug, nothing like Broad Shoulders or LE GRAND etc, because this would look too suspicious.

i strongly believe that he pulled this off because he looked nothing like the ``English version`` of a Stereotypical image of JTR, he either looked totally innocent, or totally stupid!

from memory recall only, his statement is full of changes/ crossed out words etc and he only signed it once, so my guess is he played it as a ``right thicky``, and if you play it dumb in this life, you really can get away with blue murder..... believe me !!!!!!!

plus, if he changed between murders into a Sailor boy then this shows cunning, flamboyancy and charisma, so he was probably a bit of an actor too

i would never be brave enough to go to the police would you ? no so this gives you an idea of what JTR was like, if he was GH.

whatever the case, JTR is definitely not 6ft 7'' tall...... ha ha !

Pretending to be this and that, wearing make up too, looking like a LA DE DA, on a safari trophy hunt, travelling the world, this reminds me of G.Chapman too......i'm just saying that's all !

[lynn cates]

perfectionist

Hello Malcolm. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query.

Your reasoning certainly explains the time gap pre-MJK. But I'm still wondering about his not waiting one more day? You did mention his being extra fussy? So why not delay until everything is perfect?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query.

Your reasoning certainly explains the time gap pre-MJK. But I'm still wondering about his not waiting one more day? You did mention his being extra fussy? So why not delay until everything is perfect?

Cheers.
LC

no idea, maybe because this time of the year the weather is always bad, and it wont suddenly improve tomorrow, because a cold front/rainy weather etc in the winter time usually lasts well over a week.

with JTR it looks like the weekend is the only available time that he has, this points towards him working during the week and maybe occasionally taking a friday off.

he was described as unemployed, more like he's visiting whitechapel in search of work, or he's living in a doss house until he can find work and settle down.

but what this means is, he can say that he's out all week searching high and low for work and returning to his lodgings on the weekend to relax and crash out!

but in fact, he could be back in Romford working during the week and returning to his lodgings to kill only as JTR.

with MJK, he might have been returning to his lodgings from Romford, but decided instead to stalk the streets straight way, HE DID NOT GO TO VICTORIA HOMES FIRST on his arrival back, he did exactly what he told the police, just moved the times around.

why he did this i dont know, maybe he returned to Whitechapel, went into the pub for food and drink, left via dorset st, and suddenly heard her singing at maybe 12.30am and decided to remain out on the streets and not go back to Victoria.

he did not hear her singing at 2am, because she stopped at about 1am, this means that he returned from Romford much earlier on and was probably lurking around in this area at the same time as BLOTCHY FACE !

so he hung around one hell of a long time before 2am, before he started his serious bout of stalking her, yes he maybe searched Whitechapel for another victim, found nothing and thought, ``lets take another look at this drunken woman down millers court, her window is broken and it's very close to her door handle, i wonder if i can reach it``.

he returned having failed finding another victim that he could lure indoors, and thus he became desperate and fixated with no 13. he left at 3am to make sure that nobody else could see him lurking around, he had to spend time distancing himself from this location before returning at 4am

maybe !

[lynn cates]

week ends

Hello Malcolm. Thanks again.

I've heard elsewhere that he was a week end chap. Of course, that presupposed a rather large interpretation of "week end" to include Thursday and Bank Holidays.

Did you mean that GH was described as unemployed? That seems to be correct.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Highly motivated, brave, intelligent and extremely cunning

,

Maybe he was an Estate Agent ?

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Malcolm X;199989]

no idea, maybe because this time of the year the weather is always bad, and it wont suddenly improve tomorrow, because a cold front/rainy weather etc in the winter time usually lasts well over a week.

Or a weather forcaster ?

[Malcolm X]

like with MJK , the Annie Chapman murder shows how late JTR was out at night, unfortunately the suspect seen by Mrs Long does not match GH, BROADSHOULDERS, BLOTCHY FACE, he doesn't even match LA DE DA or Pipeman.....he at best, is an older version of LA DE DA.

she answered YES....... OH DEAR ! yea' it looks like she went with him to her death doesn't it, or she got another customer later on etc etc !

``She could not say what the age of the man was, but he looked to be over 40, and appeared to be a little taller than deceased. He appeared to be a foreigner, and had a 'shabby genteel' appearance. Witness could hear them talking loudly, and she overheard him say to the woman, "Will you?" to which she replied, "Yes." They remained there there as Mrs Long passed, and she continued on her way without looking back.``

but this murder still matches MJK in one crucial way, the killer is stalking the streets very late at night and doesn't mind staying out until he finds someone.

JTR could always have come along later on and i will always have this excuse to fall back onto, but this suspect disturds me, simply because after this; they would have gone looking for somewhere more private to have sex, this is therefore a bit similar to Eddowes, unfortunately this guy does not resemble a sailor boy aged roughly 30.

but he does resemble a screwed up version of LA DE DA, with a 50% error in description due to many reasons, that aren't worth mentioning any more.

i dont know why i keep getting these doubts, i just bloody do

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Malcolm X;200135] [QUOTE]how late JTR was out at night[/QUOTE

Well whoever he was, he must have had liberal parents....

[Lechmere]

“Maybe he was an Estate Agent ?”
More likely an ex-estate agent. At least he knew all the local premises didn’t he? The avenues and alleyways, the entrances and exits and means of opening locked doors.

Malcolm, you say:
“so my guess is he played it as a ``right thicky``, and if you play it dumb in this life, you really can get away with blue murder..... believe me !!!!!!!”
This intrigues me, indeed it does.

Also one man’s ‘out late’ is another man’s ‘out early’. This is a variation on the wine glass and a half full or half empty scenario.

[Malcolm X]

“Maybe he was an Estate Agent ?”
More likely an ex-estate agent. At least he knew all the local premises didn’t he? The avenues and alleyways, the entrances and exits and means of opening locked doors.

Malcolm, you say:
“so my guess is he played it as a ``right thicky``, and if you play it dumb in this life, you really can get away with blue murder..... believe me !!!!!!!”
This intrigues me, indeed it does.

Also one man’s ‘out late’ is another man’s ‘out early’. This is a variation on the wine glass and a half full or half empty scenario.

you're probably teasing me but because the other threads on this forum about Fleming are so dumb, i may as well carry on here.

it's easier to be accepted playing it dumb in life, than it is to play it smart, especially if you're unemployed and having to deal with the police.

therefore if i was going to the police as JTR, I would win their sympathy far better if i was portraying myself as an innocent and dumb member of the public, gullible too, an unemployed nobody that means no harm to anyone, that cant hurt a fly, rather than a cocky smart arse Estate Agent!

he saw JTR really well, well of course he did, JTR walked right past him plus he followed him etc etc.... so he sais !

``i dont know boss, it's just what i saw that's all, maybe he wasn't JTR, I dont know do i, i just know that the guy that i saw looked suspicious``

later on ``hang around, i thought i saw him in Petticoat lane, yea i did; i'm flipping sure i did ``.

``have you signed the witness statement?``.... ``yea' look i did the front page, but i aint much good at writing``

i'm just messing around, but expect JTR to put on a good act at the police station, acting like a dumb arse.

as for being out at sunrise, this is odd because at this time of day the only people you'd see around in civie clothing are :-

milkman
grocery deliveries
market stall owners/ market workers
porters
drunks returning home
shift workers..... 10pm to 7am or 6am to 2pm

this seems a lot but the streets would still be pretty dead, on sunday morning Winchester is dead till about 9am, it's also an odd time of the day to be working the streets, well it deffo seems like that to me.

whatever the case, this very late hour corresponds to MJK, it is also extremely rare for somebody to be walking the streets non stop from 3am till 7 or 8am, due his digs being closed, this is one hell of a lot of walking, most people would find somewhere to crash out at about 4am, your legs would be killing you, plus you would be bored out of your mind, mentally exhausted

as such i dont believe GH kept walking from 3am to 7am or even later, this is a lie, i worked for 5 years as a night porter, and past about 4am your mind and body sais ``that's enough, i need to relax now``. because one of the most unnatural things to do is to stay awake all night, especially to be continually walking.... your brain wants to shut down.

GH, LA DE DA and Blotchy Face were nowhere near 6ft 7''....... because one of these 3 guys is probably JTR, and to be totally open minded it could be any of them and finally, it's highly likely that MJK had many admirers.

[lynn cates]

pot boys

Hello Malcolm. What about "pot boys"? Would they not be about?

I read a snippet in "The Echo" in which, during the investigation into MJK's death, SY asked at the pubs concerning Blotchy. Then they looked to the pot boys--young men who went to collect empty beer/ale containers. This was in regard to Blotchy's pot of beer.

The pot boys did NOT collect any such at MJK's place in Miller's court. Evidently, Blotchy took it out with him.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

A Deposit?

Hello Malcolm. What about "pot boys"? Would they not be about?

I read a snippet in "The Echo" in which, during the investigation into MJK's death, SY asked at the pubs concerning Blotchy. Then they looked to the pot boys--young men who went to collect empty beer/ale containers. This was in regard to Blotchy's pot of beer.

The pot boys did NOT collect any such at MJK's place in Miller's court. Evidently, Blotchy took it out with him.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lyn,

Hi Lyn,

Would there have been a deposit on the beer pot? I'm guessing that there would, otherwise not many would find their way back?

Cheers, Bridewell.