Hutchinson and Maxwell

[richardnunweek]

Hi everyone.
The Hutchinson thread is still thriving, and so it should, however one important clue may be the hankerchief, that Hutchinson recalled Kelly mentioning she had lost.
Please let me explain.
First of all I would like to appeal to anyone reading this, if they could confirm the following , either by having seen , or heard of it .
Whilst on a train journey around 1974, destination Hove greyhounds, I read a passage from a book, which may/may not have been an edition of Leonard matters, which allegedly included the following words, from a part of Mrs Maxwell statement.
'Her eyes looked queer, as if she was suffering from a heavy cold'
Within a few moments of reading this, I realized that this could be a strong pointer to Hutchinsons statement.
So in simple ABC, we have the following.
Around 215am on the morning of the 9th Nov, Hutchinson overhears kelly mention that she had lost her hanky, and promptly Astracan gave her his.
I could be wrong but surely if Mary required the use of one, the most logical reason would be to blow her nose.
According to Medical reports kelly was killed 3-5am, anyway... hours before Maxwells sighting, who reported in her opinion she was suffering from a cold.
My question therefore is.
We have two witnesses, independant of each other, who have parts of their statements which connect,how is it possible that Carrie could make that observation if kelly had been dead for hours.?
Because of what i had read, i contacted Colin Wilson via post, and informed him what I had observed, he remarked that it would be a 'earth shattering' discovery, but unfortunetly we have no proof from any another source that kelly was with cold.
I believe Donald McCormack quotes in his book ' All muffled up as in cold' or words to that effect, but not the same wording that I read,
It would be a major find if someone on casebook, a member or a guest, could pinpoint where this quote came from.
I was under the distinct impression that it was part of Maxwells original statement, which may have been lost in the blitz, and may have been quoted in one of the editions of Matters book, which of course was published well before 1940.
If such a statement existed, it would gave major credence to both those witnesses statements would it not.?
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

I'm not aware that Maxwells statement is lost.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

You are, of course, right Bob. Maxwell's statement to the police still exists and it makes no mention of Kelly having a cold or of her being "muffled up."

Several years ago I pointed out to Richard that this quote - "Her eyes looked queer, as if she was suffering from a heavy cold" - does not appear anywhere in Matters but for some reason he refuses to accept this.

McCormick does have Maxwell stating "...She looked ill, too, poor soul" (McCormick, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, Jarrolds Publishers, 1959, page 120) but the conversation between Maxwell and Abberline has been made up by McCormick loosely based on Maxwell's inquest testimony and so Maxwell never actually said this.

Wolf.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Wolf,
For the record, I am not refusing to 'accept' anything, i was merely recalling what i had read, and when i had read it, and was quoting what I had seen with my own eyes, and the quote is as near as dammed.
I quoted the Matters publication, because its around that time , that i first read it.
My post was merely an appeal for anybody, that may have come across that quote, to make it known, for it would have significance if it did exist.
But if it was quoted, in some fictional sense in some publication somewhere, i would be the first to admit to myself 'well never mind'
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

What if everyone told the truth?

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael, all,

If everyone had told the truth... then quite simply, the woman murdered in Miller's Court was NOT the person Mary Kelly we know of, the deceased was someone else of as yet unknown name, and someone, somewhere, wanted "Mary Kelly" to be presented as the victim.

The conclusion to all that of course is that not everyone told the truth.

The question is.. sorting out the truth sayer from the sooth sayer, the "flyers" from the liars.

Richard, I will have a delve through my books to see what I can find. Sadly though, I am left with the distinct feeling that Mr McCormick muddied the waters considerably with his 1959 effort, and that some of his methods in making his theory fit, were dubious.

best wishes

Phil

[sdreid]

What if everyone told the truth?

Mike

Then most likely, the time of death was wrong and Hutchison is probably irrelevant. They can't even estimate tod that well today and they admit it.

[Lechmere]

They could all have told the truth as they saw or recalled it. Witnesses make mistakes, their minds play tricks with them, they get days muddled up, the misinterpret what they see, they mistake people.
Some lie or over elaborate. Some have a need to be involved and so stretch things.
The more witnesses you have the more difficult it will always be to reconcile their stories. Particularly in the earlier days of criminal investigation.
Of the C5 Stride and Kelly have the most witnesses and the most confusion.

[Bob Hinton]

Time Of Death

Then most likely, the time of death was wrong and Hutchison is probably irrelevant. They can't even estimate tod that well today and they admit it.

That's not strictly correct. If you have a Mr Smith talking to Mr Jones at midday and Mr Jones is found dead at 1300, you can say quite accurately his death occurred sometime between those two times.

It depends what evidence you use to establish TOD. If you rely solely on forensics, rigor, stomach contents etc. then I agree it's a bit hit and miss.

However in this case we have eye witness accounts as to when MJK was last seen alive, and witness accounts of when the body was found, it is reasonable to assume death took place some time in between.

Using forensic evidence the surgeon then tried to narrow this down, and all in all I think he did a pretty fair job of it.

[sdreid]

Yes Bob, I was referring to estimates by doctors. We all know pretty accurately when President Kennedy died.