tell us who are the most credible witnesses

[Fleetwood Mac]

Seems to me that Lawende's statement rests on whether or not JTR could have appeared after Lawende's sighting and carried out the murder.....that and was it Stride they saw.

On balance.....yes......he would appear to be one of the better witnesses.....

[The Good Michael]

How is credible defined here? If it is simply a question of witnesses seeing the murderer, I agree with Rob House. If it is perfect suspect descriptions and all details accurate, there ain't no such animal. There is only perspective.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
My two witnesses that hold the most credibility, are Hutchinson and Mrs Maxwell. Why?
Around 1974, I read the following, 'Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold'
This was part of Mrs Maxwells statement, which I had never come across before or since, it appears to have been lost, and I have to be honest I have no idea where I read it , but I did, and I mentioned it to Colin Wilson, who I was corresponding with at that time, I also mentioned to him, the reason why I believed that phrase to have been signifcant , and he responded with intrest.
Why of intrest?
Shortly after 2am, Hutchinson gives an account of a hankerchief being handed to Kelly, indicating that she required the use of one, although other uses have been mentioned in the past on Casebook ie contraception, I prefer the obvious nose wiping...ie COLD
According to the doctors Mary is killed in the few hours that followed.
If this is the case how did Maxwell possibly spot the signs of a cold at 815am, she would not have known about Hutchinsons account[ unless she could see in the future] but she believed, she may have had a heavy cold.
She saw her the day before many will say, but the day is definate, as her plate returning was confirmed by police, so it would only be mistaken identity, and I believed that[missing] comment by the much distrusted Maxwell, goes a long way ito substanciate both witnesses integreity.
Donald Mccormack has a similiar reference to that statement in his book, but he has it as 'All muffled up as if in cold'.
I am afraid its a bit like that elusive Radio broadcast of mine, I cant get the proof[ as yet] but you have my word, that wording is accurate, for I have never forgotten it.
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

That is certainly interesting Richard ! It did make Me think twice..

..but then again, if Hutch made up his story, he may have woven the 'red handkerchief' into his story because he knew that Lawende had given a
description to the Police of the Suspect taken as 'Jack' as wearing a red handkerchief...and he wanted to establish the thought in peoples minds that
A Man and Lawende's suspect could be one and the same.

We are in England, in November, with people living cold draughty conditions
and in overcrowded rooms and lodging houses..so having a cold would be common.

Furthermore, the woman seen by Maxwell had just been vomiting..which may have made her eyes bulge and 'water' (I know mine do if I vomit).

[Fleetwood Mac]

How is credible defined here? If it is simply a question of witnesses seeing the murderer, I agree with Rob House. If it is perfect suspect descriptions and all details accurate, there ain't no such animal. There is only perspective.

Mike

I would say that's a given Mike...in the sense that in the absence of knowing the identity of the killer....then there can only be opinions/perspective......although some are built on better foundations than others....and that's all the thread is asking for really.....who...in your opinion....is most credible.

So....take Mortimer.....someone comes forward to prove beyond doubt...surely...that she was on the doorstep......take Schwartz....no one corroborates his story....now it doesn't prove Schwartz was lying....but surely there must be a concensus that where asked to stake your life on it you'd go with Mortimer as being more credible?

[Fleetwood Mac]

That is certainly interesting Richard ! It did make Me think twice..

..but then again, if Hutch made up his story, he may have woven the 'red handkerchief' into his story because he knew that Lawende had given a
description to the Police of the Suspect taken as 'Jack' as wearing a red handkerchief...and he wanted to establish the thought in peoples minds that
A Man and Lawende's suspect could be one and the same.

We are in England, in November, with people living cold draughty conditions
and in overcrowded rooms and lodging houses..so having a cold would be common.

Furthermore, the woman seen by Maxwell had just been vomiting..which may have made her eyes bulge and 'water' (I know mine do if I vomit).

Ruby.....I wonder if you could do me a favour....I've been trying to find Sarah Lewis's statement about the man loitering in the yard.....and I can't find it anywhere on this board...but I know it's there because I've read it in the past...I ask you because of your affection for GH...any chance you could help me out here? Cheers.

[The Good Michael]

Mac,

Look at the inquest reports on this site under Official Documents

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rubyretro,
Why is it that we distrust Hutchinson so much? [ A silly question]
The whole point of my suggestion, was the possibility that both parties were being honest, as there is a link in both their statements, which neither would have known , unless Hutch was familiar with Maxwells statement given on the 9th, and very cleverly mentioned a hanky to give more punch to his statement.
Do we really believe he went to all that trouble?
And if so why?
I still maintain that Mjk was alive, up to at least 9am, on the 9th, regardless of any vomiting/food remains, etc, etc.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Mac,

I go with Schwartz' statement as being an accurate description of what he imagined took place. A frightened immigrant with little English being caught up in something terrible and probably asked to come forward by friends or the Club, sounds reasonable to me and likely.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

Here's the passage Mac: "I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one."

[FrankO]

..I've been trying to find Sarah Lewis's statement about the man loitering in the yard.....and I can't find it anywhere on this board...

Hi FM,

In addition to Ruby's quote, here are Sarah Lewis' official police and inquest statements.

Her police statement of 9 November:
"Statement of Sarah Lewis No 34 Great Pearl Street Spitalfields, a laundress
Between 2 and 3 o'clock this morning I came to stop with the Keylers, at No 2 Miller's Court as I had had a few words with my husband, when I came up the Court there was a man standing over against the lodging house on the opposite side in Dorset Street ["talking to a female" - deleted] but I cannot describe him. Shortly before 4 o'clock I heard a scream like that of a young woman, and seemed to be not far away, she screamed out murder, I only heard it once. I did not look out at the window. I did not know the deceased. [There is a marginal note - "I left the Keylers at 5.30 P.M."]
Sarah Lewis further said that when in company with another female on Wednesday evening last at Bethnal Green, a suspicious man accosted her, he carried a black bag."

Her official inquest statement:
“Sarah Lewis having been sworn deposed as follows: I live at Great Powell Street, Spitalfields. I am a Laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler in Millers Court. I was at her house at half past 2 on Friday morning she lives at No 2 in the Court on the left on the first floor I know the time by having looked at Spitalfields Church clock as I passed it – When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the Court in Dorset Street standing alone by the Lodging House. He was not tall – but stout – had on a wideawake black hat – I did not notice his clothes – another young man with a woman passed along – The man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for some one to come out, I went to Mrs [“Kelseys” – deleted] Keylers I was awake all night in a chair I dozed I heard no noise I woke up at about half past three – I sat awake till nearly five – a little before 4 I heard a female voice shout loudly one Murder! The sound seemed to come from the direction of deceaseds room there was only one scream – I took no notice of it – I left Mrs Keylers at about half past 5 in the afternoon the police would not let us out before – About Wednesday nigh at 8 oclock I was going along Bethnal Green Road with another female and a Gentleman passed us he turned back & spoke to us, he asked us to follow him, and asked one of us he did not mind which we refused, he went away, and came back & said if we would follow him he would treat us – he asked us to go down a passage – he had a bag he put it down saying what are you frightened of – he then undid his coat and felt for something and we ran away – he was short, pale faced, with a black small moustache, about 40 years of age – the bag he had was about a foot or nine inches long – he had on a round hat – a high one for a round one – he had a brownish long overcoat and a short black coat underneath – and pepper & salt [“and” – deleted] trousers.
On our running away we did not look after the man – On the Friday morning about half past two when I was coming to Millers Court I met the same man with a female – in Commercial Street near Mr Ringers Public House – near the market – He had then no overcoat on – but he had the bag & the same hat trousers & undercoat
I passed by them and looked back at at [sic] the man – I was frightened – I looked again when I got to the corner of Dorset Street. I have not seen the man since I should know him if I did –"

All the best,
Frank

[Fleetwood Mac]

Cheers to all for the Lewis pointer.

[Adam Went]

Pigs will fly before Fanny Mortimer is a more credible witness than Israel Schwartz. I went over this extensively in "A Matter Of Time", there is simply no way, no matter how you try and twist her testimony to fit the facts and come up with time limits and all the rest, that she can be considered a credible witness if she misses several of the other witnesses that we know were there at the same time!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Scott Nelson]

This thread is pretty funny. OK, the most credible witness was Benjamin Amos Solomon.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Pigs will fly before Fanny Mortimer is a more credible witness than Israel Schwartz. I went over this extensively in "A Matter Of Time", there is simply no way, no matter how you try and twist her testimony to fit the facts and come up with time limits and all the rest, that she can be considered a credible witness if she misses several of the other witnesses that we know were there at the same time!

Cheers,
Adam.

I'm lost here......

Goldstein comes forward after reading Mortimer's account....surely that makes her more credible? In terms of time she was at the door...well that's open to opinion....but surely she was there? Verified by someone else...unlike Schwartz...