Schwartz, a fraud?

[Tom_Wescott]

That's a pertinent point, Tom. The problem , however, is that the Coroner held legal sway over the inquests, not the police. Indeed it was (and still is) a contravention of the law for the police to withhold material witnesses or information from the Coroner. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm thoroughly confused.

Hi Garry. I'm not suggesting the police held anything back from the Coroner. On the contrary, written statements would have been provided to the coroner's office. I'm merely suggesting that the police spoke with the coroner and it was agreed that certain non-medical evidence would be with held. In the case of Tabram, Wynne Baxter was off on vacation in Scandinavia, so the much more reserved and prudish deputy coroner, George Collier, presided in his place, and not only allowed Dr. Killeen to with hold quite a bit of evidence (though nothing that would have led to her death), he even thanked him for the careful way in which he presented his evidence. In fact, from reading the evidence of John Reeves and PC Barrett, I'm inclined to think they were all instructed in this regard prior to giving their evidence. Considering this was the first such gruesome murder of the series, and Baxter was not there, this isn't too surprising.

Regarding Fanny Mortimer, she had no evidence to offer regarding time of death, and it had already been determined that the man she saw was Leon Goldstein, so her evidence would have been considered irrelevant.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garry Wroe]

I understand perfectly where you're going with regard to the inquests, Tom. My suspicion has long been that there was official connivance in order to sanitize the Kelly hearing, despite the illegality of such.

I do disgree with respect to Fanny Mortimer, though. Given that one of the primary responsibilities of the hearing was to establish a time of death, what Mrs Mortimer didn't see was as important to the investigative timeline as those things which were seen by others.

[Wickerman]

I can certainly see why some might think along those lines, Jon, but as Bridewell has intimated, who exactly was Swanson intending to impress by applying a few notes to a book that might never have been seen by another living soul?

I'm inclined to think Garry that either one of two reasons may be entertained:

1) Swanson, making such mental notes among the writings of others maybe an indication that he was anticipating writing his own memoirs, or

2) Because of his high respect for his department and "keeping quiet" (not telling tales out of class) making such mental notes was his own way of correcting certain facts without compromising his own ethics.

Because he never did apparently compile any memoirs for publication we will never know how he would have handled sensitive material.

Regards, Jon S.

[Hunter]

Hi Mike,
I realize you're post was directed at Maria, so I hope you don't mind the intrusion since you and I started this discussion on this topic.

Fanny Mortimer stated to the police that she had been off and on at her door between 12:30 and 1am, the last 10 minutes of that period almost continuously. If true, and that is somewhat supported by her validated 12:55-56am sighting of Leon Goldstein, then she should have been a part of the proceedings. As Israel should have been, if believed.

I believe you and I are in agreement about Mrs. Mortimer. What she didn't see during her vigil is important in establishing time-lines. The problem is... it contradicts your hypothesis about an earlier discovery of the body. If Kozebrodski and the others went out to raise the alarm at 12:40, or even 12:45, she would have seen or heard the commotion when she arrived at her door during those 10 or so minutes she was there shortly before 1 a.m. She heard Diemshitz's cart and the commotion that followed after she went back inside, shortly before 1.

Then there's Goldstein himself (and he does corroborate Mortimer's timing)... He walks past the club near 1 o'clock and sees nothing. If Spooner and the others were already gathered around the body (and you can bet there was a crowd) Goldstein and Mortimer would have seen it.

Regardless of who had watches or not, a 15 or twenty minute earlier timeline just doesn't fall into place or fit the evidence. Kozebrodski, himself, (who spoke very little English) helped find PC Lamb and Lamb stated that this was around 1 a.m. Even Brown, who claimed to have seen the victim with a man at 12:45 stated that he had been indoors for 15 minutes when he heard the shouting.

Even Heshburg... If he actually heard a police whistle around 12:45, then everyone who followed, Lamb, Smith, Johnston and Blackwell were off their timings considerably.

Nice try, though.

[Garry Wroe]

I'm inclined to think Garry that either one of two reasons may be entertained:

1) Swanson, making such mental notes among the writings of others maybe an indication that he was anticipating writing his own memoirs, or …

Possibly, Jon. But then I would expect Swanson to have constructed a solid set of notes in preparation for such a project. As far as I’m aware no member of the Swanson family has made any mention of such. Perhaps Paul Begg could throw some light on this issue.

2) Because of his high respect for his department and "keeping quiet" (not telling tales out of class) making such mental notes was his own way of correcting certain facts without compromising his own ethics.

This seems the likelier of your two scenarios, Jon. If so, I cannot think of any reason why Swanson would have exaggerated the importance of Anderson’s witness. Since he therefore stated that this man’s testimony could have secured a conviction in its own right, he must surely have believed it.

Because he never did apparently compile any memoirs for publication we will never know how he would have handled sensitive material.

But we do have his supplementary annotations in Anderson’s book which provide both a valuable insight into his thinking and a clear indication as to the identity of Anderson’s witness. I’m willing to bet, however, that most will simply disregard this information and stick dogmatically with the traditional interpretation of events.

[Hunter]

Swanson put considerable weight into Lawende's sighting, despite the caveats he mentioned in his Oct. 19 report. As far as he was concerned, Lawende & company probably did see the victim with her killer just minutes before she was found mutilated. He stated that it was possible (considering Stride's trade) that Stride could have met her murderer after the incident witnessed by Schwartz. Whether such a witness would have garnered a conviction may be in doubt to us now, but may not have been to Swanson. He was used to dealing with reluctant witnesses who played down their sightings.

The suspect was watched - according to Swanson - by City CID, which indicates that a City witness to a City murder was involved. In the two times that it was reported that an ID attempt was made (Sadler and Granger) it was the Mitre Square witness who was mentioned, so someone certainly thought Lawende or one of his companions were considerable enough witnesses to use in such manner. We know Lawende was still living in London at the time; we don't know where Schwartz was or even if he was available at such a late date. Lawende was a well planted citizen of the community. Schwartz could have been one of the many transient immigrants who eventually moved on.

[mariab]

We know Lawende was still living in London at the time; we don't know where Schwartz was or even if he was available at such a late date. Lawende was a well planted citizen of the community. Schwartz could have been one of the many transient immigrants who eventually moved on.

I'm entertaining similar thoughts, including the suspicion that Schwartz might have briefly gone into hiding and/or changed his first name. As you know I've been researching this, and I'm not convinced that the Russian/Polish Israel Schwartz living in proximity to Berner Street in 1891 is our Hungarian Schwartz.

[Michael W Richards]

Hey Hunter,

Thanks for responding to the post. Ill see if I can address some of your concerns. Sorry this may be longish.

"I believe you and I are in agreement about Mrs. Mortimer. What she didn't see during her vigil is important in establishing time-lines. The problem is... it contradicts your hypothesis about an earlier discovery of the body. If Kozebrodski and the others went out to raise the alarm at 12:40, or even 12:45, she would have seen or heard the commotion when she arrived at her door during those 10 or so minutes she was there shortly before 1 a.m. She heard Diemshitz's cart and the commotion that followed after she went back inside, shortly before 1."

Im glad we agree in part, but in actuality, according to the statements given to the police the very morning of the murder, only Kozebrodski at around 12:40 left for help, alone. By Louis's insistence..hence Louis and cart were already there. My bet is that they had arrived before PC Smith saw Liz with someone, and before Fanny began her time, off and on, at her door. Fanny may have heard it later being taken away to unload it in George Yard. All she had to miss was 1 man, Isaac leaving. I suggest that there was no activity outside the gates to see at 12:40. What was happening according to those statements is that members inside were gathering in the passage around the woman.

"Then there's Goldstein himself (and he does corroborate Mortimer's timing)... He walks past the club near 1 o'clock and sees nothing. If Spooner and the others were already gathered around the body (and you can bet there was a crowd) Goldstein and Mortimer would have seen it."

Ill bet Goldstein did see something inside the gates and was "shooed" away by people there, thats why when Fanny saw him look into the passage he was hurrying past the gates. Lets not forget that Goldstein had a black bag of empty cigarette cartons and inside that passageway lived cigarette makers, some of which were awake at the time. My theory also suggests that Eagle lied and likely Lave. Of course we are talking about Club affiliated people. The first people that would be suspected because the murder occurred on their property while members were known to be there.

"Regardless of who had watches or not, a 15 or twenty minute earlier timeline just doesn't fall into place or fit the evidence. Kozebrodski, himself, (who spoke very little English) helped find PC Lamb and Lamb stated that this was around 1 a.m. Even Brown, who claimed to have seen the victim with a man at 12:45 stated that he had been indoors for 15 minutes when he heard the shouting."

Kozebrodski did not say he left around 1am, he said Louis asked him to go get help when he was called down to the passage, about 10 minutes after arriving back to the club at 12:30am. Issac found no-one and returned to the club near 1am, as Eagle was returning at that time with a policeman. Im fairly certain Brown did not see Liz, but as I said, I believe no crowd had spilled out into the street before 1am. So his timing on hearing the commotion is fine.

"Even Heshburg... If he actually heard a police whistle around 12:45, then everyone who followed, Lamb, Smith, Johnston and Blackwell were off their timings considerably."

What Im suggesting doesnt affect any police arrival times or medical expert times. Isaac said he found no-one, and he said he left alone, that means Eagle and Louis and his partner left soon after. Louis and perhaps another member with the surname Issacs didnt see Spooner until they were doubling back, perhaps around 12:45. Eagle arrives back with the Police just after 1am. Thats the point when any audible commotion occurs, and Fanny and Brown hear those sounds.The only issue is the Police whistle...and how are we to know if he actually heard one or if so, whether a policeman was blowing it?

What is needed to see my perspective is a baseline that suggests when the body was found, sometime around 12:35-12:40ish, the only reaction was hushed concern for the possible implications on the club. My guess is that Louis, Eagle and others were around the body considering how they could exonerate themselves from any complicity in her death. Israel Schwartz's story is the eventual answer. They also send men out for police. When those men arrive back, one with a cop, that's when the louder commotion starts...just after 1am.

Hope that explains the premise better.
Best regards,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

Non-Appearance

Hi All,

Might the reason for Israel Schwartz not being called to give evidence at the Stride inquest be the same as that which caused Warren to have the GSG erased - fear of stirring up anti-Semitic hostility? On the face of it, Schwartz saw JtR in the act of attacking one of his victims and ran away when he could have gone to her assistance. The truth may not be as simple as that, but that's how the Jew-hating element would probably have portrayed it. I'm not surprised he kept a low profile.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garry,

I still don't see that the police placed too much importance on Mortimer. They figured they had time of death in the bag without her.

Hi Bridewell,

I don't see why that would be, since Schwartz's testimony would have implicated a tall fair haired man and an apparent anti-Semite.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

I don't see why that would be, since Schwartz's testimony would have implicated a tall fair haired man and an apparent anti-Semite.

His testimony would also have revealed what some would see as his cowardice.

Regards, Bridewell

[Michael W Richards]

Tom,

Your comment regarding Fanny Mortimer, in the context of this thread, made me realize that the absence of Israel and Fanny suggests that the Police may not have seen the need to present evidence of nothing happening. No-one saw Israel or BSM or Pipeman on the street at all, no corroboration, and Fanny never said she heard or saw anything happening outside the gates at 12:45am. I believe the Inquest was intended to address the manner or cause of death, not specifically the time of death. In this case as in the other Canonicals, that was Willful Murder by parties unknown.

That would also mean that Liz was out of sight at that time.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bridewell. I'm not sure that Schwartz saw it that way, since he willingly spoke to a Star reporter, and I don't think the police or coroner would have been concerned with Schwartz's reputation. I'm sure his absence at the inquest had more to do with preserving the evidence of their primary witness. It is certainly not because he had become a discredited witness, as some have suggested.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is a problem with Lawende in that he probably saw Eddowes 10 minutes before the murder. That makes him no more the 'only man who ever saw the murderer' than PC Smith.

That is why I would discount him as the witness. It just isn't enough to distinguish him from other witnesses.

[Hunter]

Lawende and company saw a woman and a man at the entrance to Church passage only ten minutes before she was discovered by PC Watson. She had already been murdered and mutilated. Fairly narrow time-frame I would think.