Schwartz, a fraud?

[corey123]

Hello Tom,

All true, whichs makes both senerios possible.

Yours truly

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Corey. Many scenarios as 'possible', but what we're looking for here is what's probable. The reality is that there is no single factor that suggests to us that Schwartz lied. For a long time I've suspected otherwise, but historically we have little choice but to accept his evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Hello Tom,

Remember though, I don't believe he did lie. It is a possibility however. What I do think is he tried very hard to remember something he didn't pay much attention to.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Corey. Many scenarios as 'possible', but what we're looking for here is what's probable. The reality is that there is no single factor that suggests to us that Schwartz lied. For a long time I've suspected otherwise, but historically we have little choice but to accept his evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
Agree. Although some posters have made me think twice because of that dam cachous! : )

In my mind you have weigh whats more probable: That somehow Stride held onto the cachous during an attack by JtR or that a foreigner new to a country will lie to police about a murder investigation. I will go with the former (but not by much).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby, I'm pretty sure the cachous didn't come out of Liz's pocket until she was in the yard and standing.

Corey. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not aware of anything in the evidence for you to support your conclusion with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, I'm pretty sure the cachous didn't come out of Liz's pocket until she was in the yard and standing.

Corey. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not aware of anything in the evidence for you to support your conclusion with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
I'm confused. If you beleive IS is telling the truth and you think:
I'm pretty sure the cachous didn't come out of Liz's pocket until she was in the yard and standing.

Then are you saying that after her struggle with BS man that she went voluntarily into the yard and felt such at ease as to to take out the cachous?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby,

No, I think the Ripper used robbery as a ploy to gain the compliance of the victims and keep them from screaming. It's not an uncommon ploy with murderers (think Manson family). This would explain the debris at Chapman's feet, the thimble next to Eddowes' hand, and the cachous in Stride's. It's the simplest, most logical explanation that also addresses mysteries of two other victims. It also shows the three women were felled by the same hand, which is inconvenient for non-Stridists, so you'll probably see some telling me to stuff it. LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"It also shows the three women were felled by the same hand, which is inconvenient for non-Stridists, so you'll probably see some telling me to stuff it."

I wouldnŽt do that, Tom - IŽll settle for the mild reprimand that such a thing would not exactly close the case. More likely, it begs the question why Eddowes, for example, would have produced only a thimble from the almighty sources hidden in her pockets. "Empty your pockets, mare!" would have produced quite an astonishing heap of goods if such a thing had been ordered. That Žs not to say that some sort of ruse could not have been used - but calling your suggestion a clincher...? Nah.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Eddowes and Stride had money, Chapman didn't. Eddowes and Stride were taking the money out of their pockets. Chapman protested that she had no money and was therefore asked to empty her pockets. This is how this sort of thing works. Now empty your pockets, Fish!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

That is an interesting theory but I believe a prostitute expecting to service a client and not expecting what suddenly did happen would be more logical. In Stride's case, the police said that her pockets had not been rifled... and willingly lying on the ground - even under threat - doesn't seem practical for a woman who had likely experienced a variety of bellicose men in her time. An attempted robery might have been met by resistance from these women. It would have been much safer to simply catch the victim off guard and move swiftly.

I didn't think Eddowes had any money when she was released from jail and Stride possibly had spent all of her's...which is why they were probably doing what most of their contemporaries thought they were doing at the time.

[Fisherman]

Tom W:
"Eddowes and Stride had money, Chapman didn't. Eddowes and Stride were taking the money out of their pockets. Chapman protested that she had no money and was therefore asked to empty her pockets. This is how this sort of thing works. Now empty your pockets, Fish!"

Haha! Well, Tom, IŽd be a lot more careful doing so then you are!

The idea of a ruse is not a bad one. But there is not enough in it - by far - to make such a call. If you ask me, that is - but you seldom do, do you?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hanbury Street. Cadosch hears two people talking softly, followed by a thud on the fence and a voice softly saying no. Schwartz sees two people talking softly, followed by one of them being thrown down and softly saying no. The Berner Street and Hanbury Street sites are extremely similar...the most similar of any two Ripper murders, and they ran in sequence. Hanbury Street even had its own Israel Schwartz in the form of Violenia, who claimed to see two men attacking Chapman, but it was later discovered that he was lying just to see the body.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.....

Did Schwartz hear them talking? Or was it a tap on the shoulder followed by an attack?

Regardless...didn't Stride scream three times 'not very loudly'?.....wouldn't that put a different complexion on the response of the two victims? Quite the accomdating victim is Stride....she's being attacked but keeps it down.....rather convenient.....the account paints a picture of someone being attacked but makes insufficient noise to alert those nearby....which is useful for anyone wanting to paint a particular picture.

To me Mitre Square/Berner Street/Hanbury Street.....share a core similarity in that they are just off a spot (and surely the victims were propositioned with a suggestion to go into that quiet spot rather than propositioned at the quiet spot) that can be used for a spot of privacy.....the key difference being that at Mitre Square and Hanbury Street it seems no attack took place until they reached the quiet spot.....assuming Schwart'z account is trustworthy.....then that would firmly place Berner Street as the odd one out.....particularly as Schwartz claims the victim was being thrown into the street. And following on from this......it casts further doubt on Schwartz's account if you believe Liz was JTR victim.

[Fleetwood Mac]

His description of BS Man grabbing Stride's shoulders (not arms, as we would expect a liar to fabricate) fits with the medical evidence in that her shoulders were bruised just prior to her being murdered.

Yes that's an interesting one.....although I wouldn't necessarily go with an expectation that a liar would have claimed arms rather than shoulders.

If BS Man is the killer.....then how does she end up in the yard with him? I just can't see how Stride would go into a dark spot with someone who has just attacked her in the street......unless they are acquianted (and then you have two killers operating in the same area at the same time) or he is someone in a position of authority and said authority gives him some sway over her actions....or you believe her instincts weren't fully functioning due to drink........

To answer your question.....Tom.....I'd go with Schwartz lying...

[mariab]

Fleetwood Mac wrote:
If BS Man is the killer.....then how does she end up in the yard with him? I just can't see how Stride would go into a dark spot with someone who has just attacked her in the street......unless they are acquianted (and then you have two killers operating in the same area at the same time) or he is someone in a position of authority and said authority gives him some sway over her actions....or you believe her instincts weren't fully functioning due to drink........
Oh, she would definitely go in the yard with him, Fleetwood Mac, in the hope of some enhanced compensation, even with a bit of a rough time anticipated.
It also seems like she might have known BS, or that he might have even been in the pimp business (together with Pipeman?). It's in our best interest to try to have both BS and Pipeman indentified through research.
I don't think that Stride was severely incapacitated through drink, although I'd have to look up the inquest again, for which I don't have time just now.

[Rubyretro]

I really can't see the logic in the argument either BSM killed Liz or Schwartz was lying...

I will repeat my scenario, which seems perfectly feasible to me ..some trouble making rascist thugs either went to/were passing the club and either were there to hassle and insult any Jewish men leaving the club -or as I say passing (but they knew what the club was).

They saw prostitute Liz Stride, standing outside the club hoping to get some
clientele from amongst the club members, and insulted her for be willing to sleep with Jews, and BSM tried to drag her OUT of the yard, and threatened her.

Liz refused to go, but she was not very scared because she either knew the men, or men like them, and she didn't feel in fear of her life, nor wish to avert the club nor neighbours to 'trouble' and be forced to 'move on'.

The very Jewish looking IS then walked down the street, alone and vulnerable, and the thugs then turned their attention to him..with Pipeman (who was relaxed enough during the BSM/Liz altercation to shelter in a doorway and light his pipe) suddenly springing into life for a bit of good 'sport' taking off and haring down the road after IS.

BSM either set off down the road walking, hoping to catch up with Pipeman giving IS a 'good kicking', or finding himself alone and not so courageous
or enthusiastic about facing club members alone, gave up and went home.
Alternatively a third mate, standing in the shadows a little way back in Dutfield's yard, out of IS's sight stepped forward and said " ok -enough !-leave the lady alone" -or a man walking into the road behind IS 'saved' Liz, and then propsitioned her -and this didn't bother BSM , because the man was a Gentile and 'one of us'. Anyway, BSM left the scene.

(very small 'time frame', and Liz already had her flower)

Liz walked happily, quietly, and pleased into Dutfields Yard (thinking the 'incident' was over, and she was going to earn some money, and fishing out her cachous to sweeten the taste of a blowjob on a work man with little access to personal hygiene).

JtR struck so rapidly that the cachous remained in her hand in a 'death grip'. JtR was interrupted by Diemschitz , but frustrated hied away to another known spot hoping to find another easy victim to satify his fantasies.

BSM and Pipeman did not come forward to identify themselves to police for a variety of possible reasons : (a combination of SOME of them ?).
a) they had no idea who JtR was
b) they hated the Police and were thugs themselves
c) BSM man feared being accused himself
d) they were pleased that negative things had happened next to the club
e) they couldn't care less that Liz was dead
f) they genuinely thought a club member was the murderer
g) they were responsible for other crimes like 'arson' and didn't wish to come under Police scrutiny
h) they genuinely thought that their mate had left the scene at the same time
i) their mate stayed at the scene but spun a story implicating a Jew, which they believed
j) they suspected their mate as being JtR, but didn't come forward to shop him for the reward, as they had crimes such as the arson attacks, in which people died, that made them fear being hung themselves (they didn't have faith in a Police pardon)
k) they worked out that JtR was their mate, but preferred to secretly murder him themselves (after Kelly's killing), rather than trust the Police (above reasons j).)

None of this scenario, with a multitude of variations and avenues, casts doubt on either Schwartz or the Club, nor makes BSM the killer.

What is wrong with it ?