Jack and the Grapestalk

[Phil H]

Thanks,

Phil

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

What a pair of exploding brainiacs we are.

Try adding this to the equation.

At the Old Bailey, 24th June 1889, George Lewis, a solicitor consulted during the Ripper case, stated that "I have seen Grandy [Le Grand] at my office, not in connection with this case [conspiracy], but as a private detective in connection with the Parnell case . . . it did not come to my knowledge that he had been employed by Mr. Soames, nor do I believe it—I do not know that he had been shadowing Pigott and Mr. Labouchere; I do not believe it . . ."

George Lewis, who had interviewed Pigott in the company of Parnell, did not say that Le Grand was not shadowing Pigott and Labouchere; merely that he did not care to believe it. But if Le Grand's story was true this puts him in company with the RIC, two of whose officers–Sergeants Fawcett and Gallagher–let Pigott to slip through their fingers, and Robert Anderson who, it was believed by the press and others at the time, connived to allow Pigott's escape. Anderson then despatched two of Littlechild's officers–Inspector Patrick Quinn and Sergeant Richard Owen–to arrest him in Spain.

Talk about six degrees of separation. We've still got a long way to go, but I'll bet you a tenner to a Snickers bar that, somehow, the JtR phenomenon was inextricably bound up in the political intricacies of the Special Commission, which makes for a very good reason why it's still a state secret almost 122 years after the event. And if certain people have their way, it will remain a secret.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,
I've been interested in that aspect of the Le Grand case for about three years when I first saw a brief article mentioning that Le Grand claimed to have been employed by Lewis on the Parnell Inquiry as a private detective.

The Old Bailey transcripts weren't available at that time so it was impossible to flesh any of this account out. The Old Bailey transcripts, when they came online gave the name of Scanlan, another private detective who accompanied Le Grand to see Lewis and had a letter of introduction from the Irish Times.
The quote you cite above is part of Lewis's denial that he employed Le Grand I think isn't it? Although he does admit that he saw him in his office. The part he does 'not believe' is I think refering to the fact that Le Grand may have applied to Soames and got work with him.
James Hall, Le Grand's clerk confirmed that he had spent at least one night in the company of Le Grand watching Justin McCarthy MP at his house at Cheyne walk, one of the 'accused' named in the Parnell inquiry papers I believe?
As the Parnell Inquiry is so complicated it's something I've not dug too deeply into, I've read books by Justin McCarthy and Labouchere but I can honestly say I'm still none the wiser how Le Grand fits in...if at all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

It's going to be a while before we find out how Le Grand fitted in, but what we do know, however tenuous it appears at the moment, does suggest some sort of unofficial and "off the books" arrangement with Scotland Yard. Not that it allowed Le Grand to call in any favours in the matter of his conspiracy charge for which he received two years hard labour. How this arrangement worked with Anderson allegedly in Switzerland at the time of the double event is anyone's guess. Maybe the SB ledgers will give us a clue. Somebody had to be paying him.

On 10th May 1888, Michael John Scanlan, described as a private enquiry officer, appeared on a charge of fraud at Marylebone police court. On being cautioned, he had said, "I will go [to the police station], and when we get there ask for Sergeant Record and Inspector Measures, as I know them." On 16th May, having been refused bail, he was acquitted. If he's the same man he would seem to fit in nicely with Le Grand's particular line of work.

It's all in there somewhere.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

On 10th May 1888, Michael John Scanlan, described as a private enquiry officer, appeared on a charge of fraud at Marylebone police court. On being cautioned, he had said, "I will go [to the police station], and when we get there ask for Sergeant Record and Inspector Measures, as I know them." On 16th May, having been refused bail, he was acquitted. If he's the same man he would seem to fit in nicely with Le Grand's particular line of work.

It's all in there somewhere.

Regards,

Simon

That's the same man I picked out as probably being Le Grand's Scanlan, Simon.
It's briefly mentioned in Tom's article.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thanks. Yes, MJ Scanlon's a good match. I haven't yet subscribed to Examiner, so didn't know Tom had already mentioned him.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Bloodstained shirts and Batty Street lodgers aside, if we return to the issue of the thread - them grapes - the explanation that Tom Wescott offers in his Ripper Notes article is - at least to my mind - a very good one.

It´s the mystery of the bloody right hand all over again; when Strides right hand was eventually lifted from her body, with Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky as bystanders, it had on it clots of blood. In the flickering light on the crime scene, these clots very probably mistaken for grapes by the two men. Interestingly, what this tells us is that the clots described by the doctors (they were apparantly mainly situated on the back of the hand, though the inside of the wrist was also bloodsmeared) were probably about the size of human fingerprints.

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

You're kidding me. Right?

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

No, he's not kidding. And let's not forget that Diemschitz appeared at the inquest and did not state he saw any grapes. That solely comes from the press reports taken in the hours immediately following the murder. There are two possibilities:

1) No one mentioned grapes and the press misreported. Or, more likely...

2) In the dark the blood clots on her wrist, combined with her partially closed hand, gave the impression she was holding grapes.

I was surprised to see Fisherman endorse my idea since I thought he had previously poo-pooed it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

You are doing yourself an injustice here, Tom; what I always said was that your piece in Ripper Notes was full of ingenuity and good thinking - but that your conclusion on how Strides hand became blood-stained was totally wrong.
As for the "grapes", I think you are spot on, and I fail to see any other reasonable explanation than the one you offered.

The best,
Fisherman

[Scott Nelson]

Mud on her hand coated with blood -- grapes. The clay in Dutfield's Yard was a smectite variety, which tend to ball up when disturbed.

[Rubyretro]

Hemorrhoids Scott

[protohistorian]

Before we start saying there could be blood clots big enough to be confused with grapes, we should probably consider the person has to be alive long enough to secrete the proteins that trigger the clotting cascade, and also how much fibrin can be formed with the chemicals released locally at the wound site. It is very unlikely a clot could be formed in the non pressurized environment outside the body with ambient levels of clotting triggers. Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Proto. We don't need to theorize, the doctors called them 'oblong' clots. It's a matter of historical record.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[protohistorian]

Hi Tom, No, we to not need to theorize( we are surely rich enough in that!), we need to be very clear about what we are saying. A clot is a formation of a cluster of blood cells in a living organism. It is a biological response to blood loss. It could not be a clot. It could be a congealed mass, but that is not a clot, it is a congealed mass. If an organism had a response to blood loss that produced grape size masses in the bloodstream, nature would actively select against such a maladaptive system. So regardless of what the doctor called, it is not a clot.This is one of those times when language is anachronistic. Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

We took a vote and like 'clot' better. Fewer letters, easier to spell. Besides, it's the shape and size that matter here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott