John McCarthy in the 1891 census

[Chris Scott]

On another thread I mentioned the "double entry" of John McCarthy in the 1891 census.
I have had two messages from folks who did not know what this was about.

The listing for 27 Dorset Street in 1891 includes TWO men named John McCarthy, both aged 42. However there are many differences:
1) The first John McCarthy is born in Spitalfields, married to a woman named Mary, aged 38, and has one son. He is described as a general shop keeper.
2) The second John McCarthy is born in Dieppe, France, married to a woman named Elizabeth, aged 38, and has four daughters. He is described as a grocer.

Also listed at the address are Daniel Mccarthy and his wife, two domestics, and a man named Henry Kempton, a printer, and his family.

The orginal listing (including 26 Dorset Street) is below.

[The Good Michael]

Jeez Chris,

It looks like a can of worms has been opened with that post. Many postulations are possible.

Thanks for posting that, really.

Mike

[Chris Scott]

Hi Mike
This problematic listing in 1891 has interested me for some time now. Other instances I have come across of "double entry" census records (like that in the Mog Cheeks thread which sparked this off) are more easily explicable in that in that instance the two entries are readily reconcilable and can be put down to clerical error.
But in the McCarthy case, apart from JM himself, the two alleged families are completely different - place of birth, number and gender of children, name of wife etc.
There is obviously something going on here and it is hard to explain IMHO. If the Dieppe JM is the right one, as we would expect from earlier records, then who are Mary and George McCarthy, the son and wife of his alter ago? Were they invented? If so, how and to what purpose?
This list has long baffled me!

[The Good Michael]

Usually one can create a scenario that seems plausible, throw it out to the group, and then have it accepted or picked apart. I can find nothing but a scenario of human error due to laziness or exhaustion that might account for the two Johns of the same age, at the same address.

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris, Mike, all,

Here are the details of the 1881 Census for the occupants of 27 Dorset Street, including John McCarthy born in France.

MC CARTHY, John Head Married M 30 1851 General Dealer British Subject born France

MC CARTHY, Elizabeth Wife Married F 29 1852
born Spitalfields Middlesex

MC CARTHY, John Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar
born Spitalfields Middlesex

MC CARTHY, Margaret Daughter Single F 5 1876 Scholar
born Shadwell Middlesex

MC CARTHY, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 2 1879
born Spitalfields Middlesex

MC CARTHY, Daniel Brother Single M 19 1862 Shopman
(General Shop) born Lambeth Surrey

BUCKLEY, Henry Boarder Single M 24 1857 Shopman (General Shop) born Mile End Middlesex


Registration District: Whitechapel
Sub District: Spitalfields
Civil Parish: Spitalfields
Address: 27, Dorset St, Spitalfields
County: Middlesex

best wishes

Phil

[The Good Michael]

Phil,

That John, son looks like the son of a Henry Kempton. I believe John McCarthy had a son born 1874, but he's not on the list Chris provided. This son, named Steve, was the one who married Marie Kendall. His birth name wasn't Steve, but I don't believe 'John' was either.

Mike

[jmenges]

Steve's birth name was John McCarthy,junior.

JM

[Phil Carter]

Usually one can create a scenario that seems plausible, throw it out to the group, and then have it accepted or picked apart. I can find nothing but a scenario of human error due to laziness or exhaustion that might account for the two Johns of the same age, at the same address.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Just a thought..If it were laziness or exhaustion causing human error, then the 2nd of the families listed would be wrong. However, the 2nd family, with John McCarthy born in France, IS listed in the 1881 census. So I would venture a guess that as THIS family is listed in the same place in two different censuses, it must be the correct one, should one of the families be wrong in the 1891 census. However, as you say, many possibilities here. Can we possibly just assume that simply another McCarthy family also lived in 27 Dorset Street in 1891? i.e. it's a simple coincidence?

best wishes

Phil

[Maggyann]

Could they perhaps just have been visiting. I think the census has to take details of all in a property on a particlar night so maybe some family visiting? It is weird though.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

A thought about John McCarthy being born in Dieppe.

In 1841 Thomas Brassey and William McKenzie required 10,000 navvies to build the Paris—Rouen railway line. 5000 of these men were recruited from Britain. The line was completed in 1843. Many navvies stayed in France, building the Paris—Le Havre line in 1843 and the Dieppe—Paris line in 1847.

John McCarthy was born around 1849. If his father [Daniel, born Cork 1826] was a railway navvy, this might account for his mother [Margaret, born Cork 1826] giving birth to him in Dieppe.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Magyan, Simon, all,

Magyan: I believe the column relating to Head of household says "Relation if any", and it is there that it is normally written "visitor" against the name.

Simon: Yes, that seems to me a very plausible reason.

best wishes

Phil