Schwartz and Brown

[Mascara & Paranoia]

But wouldn't someone in Stride's position have clutched at their throat with both hands to stem the bleeding, whether it was a lost cause or not? Her throat wound wasn't as deep as the others' and didn't completely sever the neck, so I doubt she would've died as instaneously as they did, so how and why she kept hold of those breath sweeteners is a bit of a mystery.

[Jon Guy]

I believe the blood on her right hand was due to her raising her arm towards her throat, possibly the moment it was cut, as she would have died instantaneously, as all the major arteries on the left side had been severed with a deep cut, no time to put hands to the throat. The left hand had slightly relaxed after death.

If she had to make a fist quickly, as we know she had to, and this was Liz Stride. Like me, she wouldn`t drop the cashous, she would make the fist around the cashous, as this can also make a better fist.

[Tom_Wescott]

Mascara,

I think Stride may have fainted before the wound was inflicted. As you pointed out, the evidence is consistent with her being unconscious, but the very able Dr. Phillips could find nothing to suggest she'd been rendered unconscious by violence or poison.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Mascara,

I think Stride may have fainted before the wound was inflicted. As you pointed out, the evidence is consistent with her being unconscious, but the very able Dr. Phillips could find nothing to suggest she'd been rendered unconscious by violence or poison.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There is actually no investigative need to suggest that Liz ever lost any consciousness during the attack....it may have lasted 2 seconds by Blackwells remarks, and it may have begun with a choking of her from behind by her scarf...it was twisted tightly.

She may have had her throat cut while on the ground, or "while falling".

The killer most certainly has a knife in his hands when he grabs the scarf, its logistically unreasonable to assume he grabs her then takes out the knife...so Liz is one of 2 Canonicals that has her attacker begin the attack while brandishing a knife.....3 victims do not show that as being the case, and no surprise, they are the ones with abdominal post mortem mutilations.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

The tightened scarf is certainly curious, but Dr. Phillips didn't think it so tight as to have rendered her unconscious. That doesn't mean Phillips was right, but attempting to strangle someone to unconsciousness via their scarf would have taken some time and there would have been a struggle, of which there was no signs. I believe Stride fainted and her killer caught her by the scarf. The weight of her falling body would have been sufficient to cause the tightening of the scarf.

Obviously, I'm saying that the killer already had his knife out and had robbed Stride, hence her fainting. So we agree on this point, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

The tightened scarf is certainly curious, but Dr. Phillips didn't think it so tight as to have rendered her unconscious. That doesn't mean Phillips was right, but attempting to strangle someone to unconsciousness via their scarf would have taken some time and there would have been a struggle, of which there was no signs. I believe Stride fainted and her killer caught her by the scarf. The weight of her falling body would have been sufficient to cause the tightening of the scarf.

Obviously, I'm saying that the killer already had his knife out and had robbed Stride, hence her fainting. So we agree on this point, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think deep down we agree on more than that in this murder case Tom , but its nice when we do see some evidence the same way.

The thing about the consciousness, I dont believe if Blackwell was correct in his assumption that the murder may have taken as little as 2 seconds and that she may have been cut while falling that there was any suggestion by him that she ever lost consciousness. I know there is also an opinion that she was on the ground when cut, which is Ripper-like, but if she was on her back did she roll on her side by herself after the cut, and why wouldnt that roll be shown by the mud on her garments?

It appears that she fell and died without moving.

Best regards Tom

[Sam Flynn]

If she were making a fist to defend herself?

It's the initial moment of startled surprise - being grabbed from behind by a ruffian - that gets me, JG. I can see her forming a fist after that point, but the natural instinct, when being pulled backwards (or pushed forwards, for that matter) is to spread the palms open in order to cushion one's fall - in which case the cachous should have been history - but we don't see that here.

[Fisherman]

This is an interesting discussion! As you may know, I am of the meaning that the two persons inside the yard knew each other well. My guess is that BS man may well have been identical with Marshalls man, and a possible lover of Strides.

They met earlier that evening, as seen by Marshall, and they were very friendly and affectionate, it would seem. Then, at a quarter to one o clock, they see each other again, and this time it would seem that the man is trying to drag Stride away from her position outside the yard. A possible explanation could be that he believed she was soliciting there. And, as I have pointed out before, the response Marshalls man gave Stride to something she had said could well be interpreted as Stride having made some sort of promise; to stay away from prostitution, perhaps? "You would say anything but your prayers" was what Marshalls man said.

Now, back to the scene outside the yard! The man dislikes what he sees, reminds Stride of her earlier promise, and tries to drag her away with him. She resists, and as a result, she falls to the ground. The man cries out, either "Lipski" to the passing Schwartz, or "Lizzie!" to Stride.

At this stage, Stride gets up and, miscontent with what has gone down, decides to take the man into the yard to tell him off in as much privacy as Berner Street could offer. They both go in there, him with the hope of having things cleared up and the two staying a pair, her with a decision to the contrary.

They discuss inside the yard, and Stride rounds things off by telling the man that she wants no further dealings with him. After that, she turns her back on him and heads for the gates. Somewhere along the proceedings, she has taken her cachous out - in fact, she may well do it as she sets course for Berner Street again.
At this moment, he makes a quick decision, takes out his knife, and follows her, and as he catches up, he reaches out and grabs her by her scarf with his left hand, pulling her backwards, towards him. At the same time, he guides his knife around her neck, using his right hand. She looses her balance and commences to fall to her left at the same split second that he cuts. The tightened scarf ensures her silence, and the cut causes an immediate shock making her clench her fist around the pack of cachous. As she reaches the ground, she logically ends up with her face towards the wall, lying on her left side, the body in an oblique angle to the wall.

This is how I see things.

the best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

We should route this back to the witness perspectives and which based on the final analysis seems to have Liz in a position where she is not threatened.

If either man did see her at 12:45am, she is minutes from her actual murder, maybe as few as 2 or 3.

If Schwartz saw her fall as a result of being grabbed by someone she didnt know who then yells something anti semetic at the witness, I believe she would be cautious when she stood up and brushed off.

Now.....if Schwartz saw her grabbed by someone she didnt see coming but someone she did know....a gentile man,... not a gentleman by any stretch, but someone who knew Liz enough to just grab her and yank her hand or arm in his direction.....then when she rises she might not feel cautious, but perhaps annoyed.

In that scenario, BSM could just escort her into the yard by her arm, and I could still see her taking cashous out....because she thinks she knows the man she is with and that he wont harm her. Maybe her turning to walk out the gates is when she gets an idea he might just hurt her after all....maybe the little bruises she has are "poke" marks by her assailant as he threatens her.

Best regards all.

[lynn cates]

at last

Hello Fish. Well, at last my questions about Liz and her "kissing" friend have been supplied with some good answers. The above is the missing link. (I read your dissertation but must have missed something.)

I have tried to account for why Liz was IN the yard and also EXITING the yard. This makes perfect sense!!

Thank you!! (Now I can get some sleep.)

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"This makes perfect sense!!"

Thatīs what Iīve been saying for the longest time now.

"Thank you!! (Now I can get some sleep.)"

Sleep well, Lynn! I know I shall - I have added two small cousins to my own tally of three kids this weekend...

The best!
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

congrats

Hello Fish. Congratulations! I presume they will be trained in all things Ripper?

You may sleep well, but will mom and dad?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I did take my fifteen year old boy for a walk in the East end when I last vsited London three weeks ago, and somehow we stumbled upon Gunthorpe Street, Durward Street and Mitre Square.

"Have you solved it yet?" is a question my kids often ask, followed up by "Will we be rich when you do?"

Think Iīll sleep on it.

The best, Lynn, and goodnight to you!
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

making money

Hello Fish. Sleep is good.

Oh, you needn't solve it to make money. Just come up with an outrageous hypothesis that others have not yet suggested.

What about a fruiterer? Say, Packer?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Thanks for the advice, Lynn, but being of the old school, I have always tried to steer clear of the combination of a want for economical gain and the wish to reach a better understanding of what and who Jack was.

So far, my efforts have been a complete success, I may add ...

The best,
Fisherman