Schwartz and Brown

[Fisherman]

Dixon9 asks:

"do you know the 'sweethearts' names?"

No, Dixon - and nobody does. Dave Yost makes a fair case for the woman of the couple being Charles Letchfords sister Florence (who was 28 at the time), but the name of her fiancée is something I have never seen proposed.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

"Is that a knife in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

c.d.

[dixon9]

Fish

do you know the 'sweethearts' names?
cheers

Dixon9
still learning

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"Sorry for being smart ass but that was just too good to pass up. Now I know it was not uncommon to carry a knife... but on a date?....hmmm."

Well, c.d, I think we need to ask ourselves WHY people carried knives at all. And there are two suggestions that spring to mind:

1. Practical purposes - cutting the odd piece of leather from your boot, you know.
2.Self-defence - if somebody should pop up and tell you that your money would be better off in their pockets than in yours.

...and I fail to see why one would conclude that none of these needs would arise on an East-end date in 1888.

I keep a knife in the pocket of my jacket at all times, c.d - a Swiss army knife, to be more exact. It has been there for as many years as I have owned my jacket, and before that it lay in the pocket of my old jacket. I never take it out, since I never know when it will come in handy. The last time I used it was months ago.

the best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

Liz's date was fortunate that he had his trusty knife with him. I wonder if he had a pre-date checklist: clean underwear? check; breath freshener? check; money? check; knife (in case of jealousy)?, check.

c.d.

P.S. Sorry for being smart ass but that was just too good to pass up. Now I know it was not uncommon to carry a knife... but on a date?....hmmm.

[Fisherman]

Dixon9 writes:

"off on a bit of a tangent but it is to do with Brown's sighting of a couple near the board school.I believe it was probably the 'sweet hearts' Mrs Mortimer also saw that morning."

My meaning too, Dixon. Seems the better bet.

the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"to answer your question, if we eliminated the Schwartz story, the case for Jack would be greatly strengthened"

In a fashion, I agree. If we did not have Schwartz, we wuld not be able to tie the 5 ft 5, sturdy, respectable looking man to the last minutes of Strides life.

But would that actually strengthen Jack´s candidacy? Would that not be dependant upon the evidence in the yard, that would not change a bit if Schwartz disappeared?

Is it not truer to say that a Schwartzless story would decrease the credibility of an aquaintance scenario - but not move the Jack-possibility in either direction?

An academical question, perhaps.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"You make a good point with regards to the client/lover scenario."

Thanks, c.d. I think it is a very good point, actually ... but then again, that came not as any news to you, did it?

"the leap then is to say that he went on to kill her"

That is quite a leap, admittedly. But objectively, c.d - we DO have a man of the same shape and clothing appearing in her company throughout the last two hours of her life, and we do have a man that seems to tally very well with that self same description in an altercation with her fifteen minutes and two metres from where she was found dead. That means that the suggestion that he killed her becomes a suggestion that simply MUST be made. He was the last person seen with her, and he seemingly inflicted violence on her at that stage. Those are almighty pointers to guilt on his behalf.

"we also have what would appear to be a similar situation with Tabram and Pearly Poll combining business and pleasure"

There is many a difference too, c.d: The Tabram circus was a small pubcrawling party where it would seem that Martha and Poll were intent on getting BOTH booze and money for sex outof the sailors they befriended.
In Liz´case, we are told that both parts seemed perfectly sober, and they did not seem to be partying at all.

"With regards to Lizzie, it is not just the word itself. It would seem reasonable that if Schwartz was so frightened that he ran off that the BS man was facing him AND Schwartz could read the expression on his face. Otherwise we have to believe that the BS man was multi-tasking, facing one way and trying to intimidate Schwartz while imploring Lizzie."

I am in no way opposed to the proposition that he yelled "Lipski", c.d. I just find the other possibility interesting.
I think it can also be argued that Schwartz would NOT have met the eyes of BS man if he was scared of him. Then, if BS yelled "Lizzie", that may have made Schwartz look up and face BS man. If so, it would not be strange if BS man looked back on Schwartz - but the second before, as he cried out, that gaze may have been fixed on Liz!
At any rate, we know that this issue has raised many questions over the years, and no conclusive proof can be offered in any direction. But I will add that this consternation may well owe to one of the factors not being what the witness originally thought it was...

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben again:

"You're trying to make sense of Schwartz's observations as outlined in Swanson's report, and since taking her into the streets and then suddenly "turning her around" and throwing her in the opposite direction doesn't seem very plausible, it becomes reasonable to interpret the evidence in order to make sense of it, which is why I suggest that BS always intended to pull her in the direction of the yard."

That suggestion, Ben, remains a less credible one however we look upon it. My effort to make sense of Schwartz in this instance does not deviate from what he actually said in any way. He never said to what extent she was spun round, and he emphatically never said that BS man threw her in the opposite direction of the street.
Your suggestion, though, is diametrically opposed to the evidence, and as such I don´t award it much credibility.


"The point is that he didn't know if she could only cry out in a low voice, just as he didn't know (and couldn't possibly know) that Stride was deliberately lowering her screams in order that they corresponded precisely to the perceived gravity of the situation. The concept of appropriate screaming volume is one I can't get my head around. Sorry."

All you need to realize, Ben, is that when somebody hears somebody scream and makes the remark that it happened in a not very loud voice, then that conception is normally NOT guided by a belief that the screaming person could probably not scream any higher.
If somebody hits somebody else with the fist on the nose, and a bystander afterwards remarks that the hitting party did not hit very hard, then we may deduct that this conclusion was probably not due to the bystander making the guess that some sort of physical impediment hindered the guy who hit to hit harder. That is not to say that this could not have been the true reason - it could have been - but it is to say that we generally make the assumption that the people we see around us are able to hit normally hard and scream normally high. When somebody underachieve on these points, we make the guess that they have pulled their punches - physically or verbally.
In short - no, it is not by far likely that Schwartz thought that Stride could not cry out loud. It is far likelier that he was of the meaning that she had probably lowered her voice.

"I think you'll find that stoutish, shortish, dark clothes and peaked cap is a pretty generic description, especially near the docks."

Absolutely - which is why the common denominator "respectable" becomes so interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hello CD. I concur.

Do you think Liz was soliciting BS?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Hard to say but I think it more likely to be the other way around. If Liz was aware of the murders of Tabram, Polly and Annie (and this would certainly seem to be the case) she would probably be a little more selective than usual. To me, the BS man's actions seem like somebody who had just been turned down by a prostitute and who didn't like it. The aggressiveness shown by trying again might be why he was turned down in the first place.

c.d.

You're not trying to lead me into a trap here are you Lynn? Why do I keep thinking that I am going to hear somebody yell "Checkmate" before long?

[dixon9]

off on a bit of a tangent but it is to do with Brown's sighting of a couple near the board school.I believe it was probably the 'sweet hearts' Mrs Mortimer also saw that morning.Looked everywhere for the sweethearts names(wont help solve the case.lol)but does anyone know their names?

Thanks for any help

Dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

concur

Hello CD. I concur.

Do you think Liz was soliciting BS?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"The knife business (if I recall correctly) only appeared in the newspaper account and not in the official police report. Some think it simply an embellishment by an over eager reporter."

I think so myself.

Do you think that, without the Schwartz story, the Stride case looks more like Jack's work than with?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I have no reason to disbelieve Schwartz's story. On the other hand, I think it has to be taken with a grain of salt. He seems to have come in in the middle of the movie and only stayed a very short time. In addition, there is the language problem.

Assuming that Schwartz is correct, I don't see what took place as being uncommon in the annals of prostitution. It was a rough business with rough customers. It only becomes significant in light of later events and because of the tight time line. I don't doubt that at least one other prostitute got hassled by a customer that night. The BS man could have simply cussed her out and been on his way. We just don't know. So to answer your question, if we eliminated the Schwartz story, the case for Jack would be greatly strengthened.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Harry.

"All I state is what is known about witnesses.They can and do be led by suggestion.They can misinterpret in difficlt conditions,and after lenghty spells.They can lie even. Schwartz is not a good witness."

This is what I say about nearly ALL the witnesses.

"Stride was a person who could be expected to proposition a prospective (to her) customer.
Such persons are known, on occasions,to persist if such customers appear uncooperative,even to the extent of clutching at them.
Some Object[o]rs to the attentions of these women do react in an aggressive manner"

Quite true. And sometimes the ladies say, "Not tonight. Perhaps some other night."

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

You make a good point with regards to the client/lover scenario. (My hand is shaking as I type that but I think we all need to try to be a little more objective as opposed to defending our positions). Of course, the leap then is to say that he went on to kill her. And we also have what would appear to be a similar situation with Tabram and Pearly Poll combining business and pleasure.

With regards to Lizzie, it is not just the word itself. It would seem reasonable that if Schwartz was so frightened that he ran off that the BS man was facing him AND Schwartz could read the expression on his face. Otherwise we have to believe that the BS man was multi-tasking, facing one way and trying to intimidate Schwartz while imploring Lizzie. It is interesting speculation but it just doesn't work for me.

c.d.