Schwartz and Brown

[Sam Flynn]

I favour a client who was becoming attached to her (falling in love?) and hence jealous.

It doesn't necessarily have to have been a client, Lynn, considering that Stride (and Kidney) had lived not a million miles from Berner Street, until comparatively recently before her death.

[Tom_Wescott]

A recently jilted lover is a far better suspect for this murder than a post mortem mutilator Tom...based on the actual evidence of course.

Who's the jilted lover? She'd left Kidney numerous times for days at a time. He did not have a history of killing her on these previous occassions and this last one seems not to have been any different.

Motive.......a single slit of a throat does not fit with Jack the Rippers assumed motives, in that, he distinguishes himself by whats done after the murder...not by merely killing.

By the reasoning you show, we should expect to see organs missing from Nichols. Since it's impossible that Jack would be interrupted, or get nervous and flee, him being superhuman and all. So, where are these missing organs from Nichols that are required for a murder to be 'distinguished' as a Ripper crime? It's not all black and white, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

I've exaggerated nothing. If you've dropped Kidney as your preferred suspect in the murder of Stride, then you must have come to appreciate the same information which points away from Kidney.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

By the reasoning you show, we should expect to see organs missing from Nichols. Since it's impossible that Jack would be interrupted, or get nervous and flee, him being superhuman and all. So, where are these missing organs from Nichols that are required for a murder to be 'distinguished' as a Ripper crime? It's not all black and white, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Since there is actual physical evidence and circumstantial evidence based on the first killing that suggested to the coroner and the physician who performed the postmortems that the second killing was for the same motives as the first, Mary Anns ripped open abdomen should be a hint. There is every indication that Marys Anns death might well have looked just like Annies had the killer chosen a better spot to commence.

You see...there actually has to be evidence of some interrupted act to found a suggestion that interruption is even a possibility there....and since there are NONE of those indicators, there likely was no interruption.

Pollys case clearly is "pre-organ extraction"...not a completed act....based on the details of that murder, and the very next murder which is almost a twin of the first.

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

There is every indication that Marys Anns death might well have looked just like Annies had the killer chosen a better spot to commence.

So, had the Ripper been interrupted 90 seconds sooner in Bucks Row, before he could have mutilated her abdomen, you'd be arguing her as a domestic murder or one-off as we speak. You realize that, right? That's what I mean when I say it isn't all black and white.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

So, had the Ripper been interrupted 90 seconds sooner in Bucks Row, before he could have mutilated her abdomen, you'd be arguing her as a domestic murder or one-off as we speak. You realize that, right? That's what I mean when I say it isn't all black and white.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

And if the queen had balls she'd be king....the point is? That didnt happen. So why create a scenario for it?

Liz being killed by Jack who gets interrupted before he can finish suggests that he learned nothing from a first attempt that likely was interrupted, based on actual evidence not fanciful imaginations.... and just killed her before being fairly sure he had some time to mutilate, which is why he kills based on the previous murders....that he couldnt hear horseshoes and wooden wheels on cobblestone streets getting louder and approaching his location....and that he cuts Liz just as the cart and horse enter the yard.

Thats a lot of speculating, and paints what some called a "cunning" killer as extremely stupid ......a man who never left any trace of himself, never is seen leaving a crime scene, and successfully kills while the entire area and a ramped up police force was out looking for him.

Yet this cunning mutilator starts his kill-mutilation sequence while he can hear the approaching cart, or see it pulling in. He kills someone then is trapped in the yard with her.....some clever fellow.

Best regards Tom

[lynn cates]

who's left?

Hello Sam. Indeed, no necessity attaches to its being a client. However, once we remove "Jack" (wrong MO); Kidney (sailed through interrogation); and, a client, who's left? Perhaps her heavy date for that night?

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam. Indeed, no necessity attaches to its being a client. However, once we remove "Jack" (wrong MO); Kidney (sailed through interrogation); and, a client, who's left? Perhaps her heavy date for that night?

Or an old flame from her (recent) time living in the area of St George's East.

[lynn cates]

hot date

Hello Sam. Any leads on this old flame? Was he her "hot date" for that night? (Sorry, the pun was YOUR fault.)

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Could be, Lynn. I've no idea whom he might have been, though.

[perrymason]

Interesting teases there Sam, are we talking about policemen, cousins of someone she was working... for or something to that effect?

And I really dont mean to come across as so vehement about certain points, I just hope that people will see that I am not trying to justify any suspect theory in the Ripper cases.... Im just trying to understand on what basis I should accept some existing ones. Or a pre-ordained victims list.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting teases there Sam, are we talking about policemen, cousins of someone she was working... for or something to that effect?

All possible, Mike. We'll never know, of course, but Stride's relative familiarity with the streets "south of Commercial Road" has, I think, to be borne in mind.



Red arrow - Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street
Blue arrow - Stride's former residence, Devonshire Street


... NB: the "Lahore Kebab House" was a more recent development

[perrymason]

A good point to raise, thanks Gareth, sometimes the factors that need to be evaluated are the ones that are on the roads less travelled....investigatorially speaking.

Thread wise though.....would you agree with the earlier exchanges between Lynn and I that we need to resolve the question of Liz's likely state of mind at the time of her attack to explain how breath fresheners are in her hand?

Seems to me that if she was holding cashous as she was choked with the scarf and cut, with her back turned towards her killer, she did not fear an attack just prior to it. Even though she may have been leaving the yard to escape the man she was with.

Does the scenario that she felt comfortable perhaps rejecting this mans attention or advances without any immediate fear of reprisal suggest she was unafraid of someone she didnt know at all?

My best regards Sam

[lynn cates]

old flame

Hello Mike. And if, as Sam suspects, it were an old flame of Liz's, she would likely not take him too seriously (after all, she'd dumped him before, why not again?). A fatal mistake.

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Mike - you know I don't like speculating on states of mind

I will say, however, that Liz clutching onto the cachous as she was presumably being flung backwards with a knife at her throat is a bit tricky to explain, whether she knew her assailant or not.