Schwartz and Brown

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman's story

Fisherman's story certainly makes for some good reading, but I do have a few problems for parts of it. I agree with Fisherman that for the sake of the present discussion, we should assume that Schwartz was telling the truth as best as he knew it. Here are some issues.

MARSHALL'S MAN: It's important to remember that Stride was a penniless prostitute. Now that she didn't have Kidney supporting her, she had to make her own money. Cleaning would provide her with some, but she had to prostitute to fully provide for herself. Marshall saw Stride standing with a man near a pub, so it's probable she met this man outside the pub, probably as he was leaving. I say this because no one inside the pub remembered seeing her. Eddowes, likewise, was waiting outside pubs to meet men as they exited, sauced up and horny. The man's behavior was rather loose and might suggest he was not sober. The comment about Stride saying anything but her prayers would have offended most women, but Stride laughed, suggesting it was understood that loose morals were the reason he was with her. The idea that prostitutes in general won't kiss their clients is a creation of modern Hollywood and should not be seen as an indicator of romantic intimacy here. The two of them walked away from the direction of the club towards Ellen Street.

SCHWARTZ: He said the man stopped and spoke to the woman. The man was on the pavement, the woman was inside the gates. After he pulled her out and pushed her down, she said 'no, no, no' softly, suggesting she was concerned and afraid. This all happened quickly, so it's not at all likely that they were chatting amicably at all. This man approached by way of Commercial road, coming from the opposite direction from where Marshall's man was last seen walking. There's nothing in Schwartz's statement to suggest Stride knew BS Man. Either she was soliciting or the man was turning into the gateway to enter the yard when he happened upon Stride.

Between Marshall and Schwartz, Stride was spotted talking to two different men, so while it's certainly possible that Marshall's man was BS Man, it's also unlikely that he was. She was a prostitute and would take a client when she could.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Although it's probably nothing, Marshall's man and Stride stood outside 58 Berner Street for 10 minutes. Any idea who lived at this address in 1888?

[Fisherman]

Hi Tom!

Letīs take a look at things from my wiew!

To begin with, your assertion that prostitutes would search for punters outside pubs "sauced up and horny" (nice one) is of course a good one - it works much the same way today.
What does not happen today, though, and would not have happened in 1888 either, is that prostitutes offer their time to do small talk and kissing in doorways. The more reasonable suggestion would be for the prostitute to take advantage of the ... ehrm, sauced up and horny state of their client-to-be, and get the show on as fast as possible, allowing for more time to find the next punter.

But no, this is not what goes down in the Marshall man case. No drunken appearance about that man, as if he had just excited a pub, no bottom-pinching, no nudge-nudge there - instead he gives a respectable appearance, speaks softly and with an educated voice, and the couple seems quite affectionate and not intent on any carnal affairs. They walk away, his arm around her, towards Ellen Street.

Does this look like quick, "sauced-up", paid-for sex to you, Tom? A drunken horny man and a prossy taking full advantage of things? It most certainly does not look like that to me, I must say!

"SCHWARTZ: He said the man stopped and spoke to the woman. The man was on the pavement, the woman was inside the gates. After he pulled her out and pushed her down, she said 'no, no, no' softly, suggesting she was concerned and afraid. This all happened quickly, so it's not at all likely that they were chatting amicably at all."

Exactly so, Tom - nor have I suggested this exchange was an amicable one! My contention is that BS man/Marshalls man more or less stumbled upon Stride, passing through Berner Street, and that he was upset by the fact that she was seemingly soliciting for trade. That tallies well with the earlier scene; if he was under the impression that Stride held genuine affection for him, he may have been effectively awakened from that dream outside the yard. That, of course, is why he reacts by first speaking a few words to her: "What are you doing, Liz?", kind of, and then by trying to drag her with him AWAY from the soliciting.
Please note that when she cries out after having fallen to the grund, she does so in such a low voice as to attract Schwartzīs attention to it. And in what kind of situations do people keep their voices low when being subjected to violence and discomforts by others? Exactly so, Tom: WHEN THEY ARE AQUAINTED TO THE ONE WHO INFLICTS THE DAMAGE! I suspect you have done the same thing when somebody you know well have, say, pinched your bottom in public. You donīt yell at the top of your voice "WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING!!" - you instead use a loud whisper: "Donīt do that, honey! At least not here. And now!" The same thing is what goes down outside Dutfields Yard that evening. See the significance in things, Tom! Read the signs - they are quite obvious, and it is only when we use the aquintance perspective that all the pieces fit together. And when you say: "There's nothing in Schwartz's statement to suggest Stride knew BS Man", you are quite simply wrong, for the reasons outlined above. His trying to drag Stride along with him, and her keeping her voice low are just such pointers. The fact that she took her cachous out - almost certainly done inside the yard - is another clear indicator of the exact same thing.

"She was a prostitute and would take a client when she could."

You know, on the old boards, Mr Poster tried the exact same scheme, and I did not buy it then either. Itīs over-simplifying. Yes, Stride had a record of prostituting herself, but in all probability that was a part-time business for her. And no matter how that applies, we should be very careful not to accept that a prostituted womans all contacts with men are nothing but business. Ask any pimp, and you will find out. Consider her affair with Kidney.
Prostituted women are normally not in the game because they want to be. They would have just about the same dreams as most anybody, including the dream of loving and being loved. They would arrange meetings in doorways with their loved ones, just like the rest of us, speaking softly with them, kissing them affectionately and walking away down the street, his arm around her waist.
Now, that reminds me of something ...?

I will not say, however, that Stride showed her reluctance to sell sex by telling a potentional customer "Not tonight, some other night" - for that was not Stride in the first place, I suspect.

As for the rest, though, it all adds up when you realize that BS man was well known to Stride. But only then.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

By no means do I consider your theory outrageous, just unlikely. I argue vehemently against Kidney as Stride's killer, because I'm pretty much convinced he didn't do it. But I'm more convinced Kidney didn't kill Stride than I am convinced the Ripper did kill Stride, if that makes sense. So I keep my mind open to other possibilies.
If anything, it's refreshing to follow a different line of inquiry than the tire old Kidney line for once. Nevertheless, I think you might be seeing things that aren't there.
Yes, it was quite common for 'punters' to entertain these women and buy them drinks before having sex, if they did at all. You'll remember that Pearly Poll and her friends spent hours pub crawling with their soldiers before finally pairing off to get the job done. The papers are full of this stuff. Men weren't paying by the hour then, girls needed the money, and more often then not, they needed the drink.
While I don't argue that Marshall's man is relatively consistent with the description of BS Man, it's a rather generic description, and there can be no doubt that Stride was seen with different men that night, most of them AFTER she was seen walking away with Marshall's man.
I agree that an 'acquaintance' theory would be nice, but we can't force one on the facts. The facts do not indicate any of these men as being serious lovers of Liz, and certainly not one so serious they'd kill over her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello Tom. Although if I were Abberline, Kidney would be my first chap to question, I don't think that he could hold up to the interrogation if he were guilty. Unless, of course, he has much more involved neuronal synapsing than I imagine.

I am looking towards a client who is growing overly fond of Liz. Any ideas?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn,

Liz was no exceptional woman, so I doubt a client fell head over heels with her and killed her. I think we're dealing with a stranger killing here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi Lynn,

Liz was no exceptional woman, so I doubt a client fell head over heels with her and killed her. I think we're dealing with a stranger killing here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Liz, by Kidneys statements and by her known history, had relationships with men most of her life....outside her work. Odd that you would assume that her killer could not have come from that group, since we can clearly see in the second before her attack, she was holding cashous and not expecting any attack....while perhaps alkone with her killer in a dark yard./

Since its very possible she wasnt working that night, there is a very good case to be made she was paying special attention to her clothes that night and she is wearing a flower....why would she be most likely to talk to strangers? At least one or 2 of the men she was seen with might well have been friends...you do know prostitutes can have friends dont you?

Best regards

[perrymason]

As for Schwartz being the trustworthy account for 12:45am, it seems to me that the known evidence suggests only 1 witness gave a story for 12:45am at the Inquest....and it wasnt Schwartz...and there is NO evidence that has been uncovered to show that he did in fact attend the Inquest, or that his testimony was actually supressed by the authorities.

Since Lawende is supposedly trusted and he appears at the Inquest for Kate with the police stating clearly that they were withholding part of his statement for investigative purposes,.....its hard to imagine that they would do so only for his statement if they also believe Israels.

Why wasnt he introduced or his story...or why wasnt mention made of suppression of any kind.

It seems he didnt appear, and no-one has proven different in 121 years.

Best regards again.

[c.d.]

Just a couple of points -- Liz might have started the evening expecting to be on a date but that doesn't necessarily mean that she finished it that way. Her date may have failed to show or they could have had an argument. Liz may have figured hey it's a Saturday night and I am dressed up why not try and earn a little money.

Polly, Annie and Kate may have had romantic interests in their lives as well. But just having a romantic interest doesn't necessarily make it a domestic.

And Michael,

Not being picky here but it is c-a-c-h-o-u-s. Just to set the record straight.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"Liz might have started the evening expecting to be on a date but that doesn't necessarily mean that she finished it that way. Her date may have failed to show or they could have had an argument. Liz may have figured hey it's a Saturday night and I am dressed up why not try and earn a little money."

Exactly, c.d - and that fits my suggested scenario like a glove! If she set out to meet with Marshalls man/BS man, she may well have opted for business afterwards. There is nothing much that would speak against such a thing.

"Polly, Annie and Kate may have had romantic interests in their lives as well. But just having a romantic interest doesn't necessarily make it a domestic."

Once again you are correct, c.d - but this time over we need to ask ourselves which is the more common demise: To be killed by your spouse or to get in the way of a fierce eviscerator? Itīs all about statistics, c.d, and only one of these sad ends could possibly be said to have been evidenced by the sight that met Diemschutz in Dutfieldīs Yard.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"By no means do I consider your theory outrageous, just unlikely."

Tell you what, Tom; domestic affairs are actually slightly LESS unlikely than stumbling upon eviscerating serial killers who botch their jobs. Take my word for it!

"I argue vehemently against Kidney as Stride's killer, because I'm pretty much convinced he didn't do it. But I'm more convinced Kidney didn't kill Stride than I am convinced the Ripper did kill Stride, if that makes sense."

It does, Tom. And Kidney is not the guy I pin for the Stride killing either. I am just more reluctant than you are to write him off. Statistics tells us that he is viable.

"If anything, it's refreshing to follow a different line of inquiry than the tire old Kidney line for once. Nevertheless, I think you might be seeing things that aren't there."

That may of course be true. But if so, I can at least pride myself of having found a suggestable scenario that holds water in each and every detail - the pulling Stride out into the street, the crying out in a lowered voice, the cachous, the exiting the yard on Lizībehalf, the strange coincidence of Marshalls man and BS man answering to the exact same description, the bloodied right hand - you name it, and I have plausibe explanations to offer on each point. And yes, that might be coincidental - but itīs a chain of things that will not break anywhere. I kind of like that.

"Yes, it was quite common for 'punters' to entertain these women and buy them drinks before having sex, if they did at all. You'll remember that Pearly Poll and her friends spent hours pub crawling with their soldiers before finally pairing off to get the job done. The papers are full of this stuff. Men weren't paying by the hour then, girls needed the money, and more often then not, they needed the drink."

I think, Tom, that Marthas and Pearly Pollīs explorations were exactly what you are saying - pub crawling. Loud, drunken pub crawling.
What we see with Marshalls man, though, makes for another picture altogether. At the inquest, Marshall describes the meeting between Liz and her man as a very affectionate encounter. Marshall cannot make out what is said, but for the one meaning, a meaning interpreted by you as rather a slippery one - BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT MARSHALL SEES AND HEARS! He speaks of a man who expresses himself in an educated manner, a respectable, soft spoken character. There is nothing in the meeting that even remotely suggests any drunken escapade on his behalf. Instead we are dealing with an apparently thoughtful, mild-mannered encounter.
You point out that there was a pub nearby, Tom - but in them days, there was ALWAYS a pub nearby, more or less - and we have absolutely no indication that the man was ever in there. Nor does his behaviour suggest that he ever was. The differences, comparing with Tabram and Poll, are completely blatant.

"While I don't argue that Marshall's man is relatively consistent with the description of BS Man, it's a rather generic description, and there can be no doubt that Stride was seen with different men that night, most of them AFTER she was seen walking away with Marshall's man."

It is not only "relatively consistent", Tom. There is nothing arguing against it being a perfect match, actually. The stoutness, the height, the peaked cap, the dark clothes, the respectable appearance (as per the Star) - it would be much of a coincidence if two men in the company of Stride within the odd hour both answered to this description without being one and the same if you ask me.

"I agree that an 'acquaintance' theory would be nice, but we can't force one on the facts."

Oh yes, we can. Easily, in fact. And it fits like a glove!
If we ought to do it, well that is another thing altogether. But it CAN certainly be done with no effort at all.

"The facts do not indicate any of these men as being serious lovers of Liz, and certainly not one so serious they'd kill over her."

Nor do they indicate the opposite, Tom. There is too little in it to make the call either way. All we can do is to pick up on the details and try and find a complete scenario where all the bits and pieces fit together, and where all the built-in riddles find explanations that are as little outlandish as possible.

The best, Tom! Itīs good to discuss this with you!
Fisherman

[harry]

While I do not entertain the idea that Schwartz would be conciously making a comparison of the difference in height of either BS or Pipeman with himself,as he became aware of their persons,I do agree there would be an impression left on his memory of such.However impressions,even in good light,often leave a lot to be desired,and have been proven in many cases to be innacurate to the extreme.This may have also been the case in other descriptions given that night,and to base any arguement on the exactness of such sightings,would I think be going too far.So I have no difficulty in believing that the man Brown saw and the person referred to as pipeman,were one and the same.Not that it,by itself ,proves anything.It does at the most limit the known number of persons present in that small area,at 1245 or thereabouts.
I did in a previous post mention of the conditions in Duffield yard,as told by a witness.This person was Joseph Lave.He was not summoned to the inquest,but gave an account to reporters,or so it is claimed.He says that about twenty minutes(1240AM?) before the body was discovered,he left the club into the yard.It was so dark he had been forced to feel his way along the club wall.He had gone as far as the gate and remained there about five(5)minutes.During that time he had not observed any one or any activity in Berner Street.He had not encountered a body,or been aware of anything unusual in the yard.

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry!

I readily accept that estimations of height may be wrong. The problem I am having in this particular case, though, is that we know that Schwartz walked behind BS man down Berner Street, and we know that he passed him outside the yard. My guess is that he would not have been far off the mark assessing this mans height.

If we try to reconcile things, and if we accept that Brown was more or less spot on when judging his manīs height, then we need to pin a height of about 5 ft 7 on Pipeman.

We know that Schwartz thought that Pipeman was a full six inches taller than BS man. That means that if Pipeman WAS 5 ft 7, then BS man would have been around 5 ft 1 , meaning that he would have been four inches shorter than Liz, who stood 5 ft 5. Schwartz had him down as 5 ft 5, though, and I think it is reasonable to assume that the police double-checked by asking Schwartz to compare BS mans length to his approximation of Lizīditto. After that, they would know.

I have a hard time believing that Schwartz would have seen a difference of a mere two inches as being six inches, whichever way we look at things. Of course, Brown could have underestimated and Schwartz overestimated things. But it is equally true that Brown could have OVERestimated and Schwartz UNDERestimated the height.

And so, without ruling out your suggestion and without forgetting how wrong people sometimes get things, I mean that we are in all probability speaking of two different men here.

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

excising a Kidney

Hello Tom and Fish. I have no problem excising Kidney here. But then, who was Liz's hot date? She had been "working among the Jews"--perhaps it was a club member?

Is that congruent with your scenario, Fish?

The best, lads.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"She had been "working among the Jews"--perhaps it was a club member?

Is that congruent with your scenario, Fish?"

I cannot name the man, of course - and, consequently, nor can I name his religion or club preferences!

A couple of things point away from a club membership on behalf of "my" killer, of course - BS man does not come out through the club doors; he is en route through Berner Street. And he may have yelled "Lipski" - which would reasonably not be the first insult that would spring to a jewish mind.

Apart from these objections, the man may of course have belonged to the IWMEC. Once again, it is anybodys guess. My guess is a "No, probably not" for what itīs worth.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

the club

Hello Fish. Thanks. Of course, that would help explain why Liz was there in the first place.

The best.
LC