Albert Cadosch

[JTRSickert]

Hi everyone. I started this thread because there a few questions I had about Cadosch's testimony:

1. Who do you think was more accurate in the times stated during their testimony? Cadosch or Liz Long?

2. When Cadosch heard "no" and a bang against the back yard fence, why didn't he inquire if something was wrong? Did he just assume it wasa prostitute conducting business or did he just not care?

3. It's been assumed that Albert went into his back yard to relieve himself, but in the books I have, it just says "he went in to his back yard." Where does the notion that he went to into the back yard to relieve himself come from?

4. Does anyone have any idea about what the answer "no" was regarding when Albert heard it? Do Albert state whether he thought it was a male or female voice who said it?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi JTR,

Albert Cadosch was a young man (not old as sometimes assumed) who had recently endured surgery on his stomach. From his repeated trips to the outhouse, we can imagine he was not feeling all that well. I'm not sure either Cadosch or Long were right about the time. On one hand, I'd say Long would be in a better position to know the correct time (given Cadsoch's distraction), except that she wasn't really paying attention to it. Cadosch, in spite of his illness, had to be to work that day, so was paying closer attention to the time (although I'm not sure how, or if he had a timepiece).

Cadosch didn't go to see what was the matter when he heard the bump because there really was no reason to. There were no cries or sounds of 'ouch' as though a person had tripped. His neighbors were packing crate makers so bumps against the fence were normal.

He did not know if a woman or a man had spoken 'no', only that he heard whispering and was able to make out that word. It's reminiscent of Stride softly calling out 'no, no, no' in Berner Street.

I hope this helps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[JTRSickert]

THanks, Tom. I appreciate it.

[lynn cates]

time lime

Hello. In answer to 1, what about saying both were describing something else?

Is anything a priori wrong with this timeline:

4:00 AM plus/minus one hour. Jack the Ripper responds to Annie Chapman's "Hey, Ducky, wanna have some fun?" With, "OK, 3 pence?" "Yes. I know a dark, quiet place we can go." They head to 29 Hanbury, into the back yard, and he does his thing.

4:50, Richarson sleepily opens door to mom's back yard and doesn't see Annie's body to the left. Later, he emends his story to include sitting on the step and repairing shoe. Later still emends story to not being able to repair shoe.

5:15, Long hears a clock chime and thinks it is 5:30. Sees another prostitute and punter in front of 29 Hanbury.

5:20, Couple enters back yard just as sun is rising.

Same time: Cadosch hears one of them respond to seeing the body of Chapman with "no!" Couple hears Cadosch coming back from privy and thinks the murderer has returned. Startled, one of them stumbles against fence. Cadosch prepares for work; couple flees in terror. (They never come forward for obvious reasons. "Mr. Punter, why were you in the back yard of 29 hanbury instead of at home with your wife")

11:00, Jack happily begins a cricket match with the Christopherson brothers.

Lynn Cates

[perrymason]

Cadosch heard a voice and a thump from the backyard that a murder occurs in that same night, perhaps around that same time.

Unless we have anyone to place in that spot aside from Annie around that time of night, or unless anyone can prove that the voice he heard was actually male....he is valid testimony. We know she dies near the fence that borders his yard.

Cheers all.

[lynn cates]

place, not time

Hello. We know where Annie died. When is a different matter. If Cadosch really was a Ripper witness, we must believe that Jack waited until after sun up to kill Annie, on a market day, and near a busy part of town.

We must also think Dr. Phillips was an amateur about placing time of death. But I suppose stranger things have happened.

By the way, why did Long and Cadosch not see one another out front? He left about the time she saw the couple out front.

Lynn Cates

[Tom_Wescott]

We must also think Dr. Phillips was an amateur about placing time of death.

No more or less an 'amateur' than any other doctor then or now working with the methods available to him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

No more or less an 'amateur' than any other doctor then or now working with the methods available to him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I liked that defense, I happen to think hes a credible source here too, based on the circumstances and era.

Cheers Tom

[The Good Michael]

I think the time line should be corrected to say that Long saw the couple at 5:30 and that Cadosch heard the noise at just past that. If Chapman was killed at 5:30, and the morning was cool, which I believe it was, then Phillips time of about 4:30 would not have been so far off. An hour was not a big deal. There are many factors involved in this calculation including ground temperature, body fat, and what part of the anatomy a person inserted the thermometer.

Mike

[JTRSickert]

OK, we all know Albert Cadosch's testimony about going twice into the backyard of 27 Hanbury street, presumably to relieve himself. Outside the first time, he catches wind of a conversation, the only discernible word being "No." The second time, he hears a large noise against the fence separating the 2 yards, presumably JTR attacking Annie in the yard. However, here is something to think about: Does anyone think JTR heard Cadosch when he came into the yard. I've been doing some thinking about this and I think it's possible. For example, as Albert comes into the yard, perhaps JTR asked Annie Chapman, "Did you hear something?" to which Annie replied, "No." Or maybe it was vice-versa. Also, after Cadosch hears the bang against the fence, he hears no further commotion. Perhaps jack heard him (or hell, maybe spotted him in between the fence boards), and decided to wait till he left before continuing his assault.

[lynn cates]

natural reaction

Hello JTR. If Jack had heard Albert, would not the natural reaction be to cut quickly and run (as many suppose happened a few weeks later in Dutfield's yard)?

I wonder if a full blown assault can be interrupted and then resumed later?

The best.
LC

[JTRSickert]

Ah, but Lynn. That's assuming JTR was Stride's killer. And, if so, JTR had nowhere else to go in Dutfield's Yard. He had no choice but to hide and run. And besides, he already fatally wounded Stride. For Chapman, he had the fence to guard him and I think he made sure no saw him go in either.

[Frank]

Cadosch said that it was about two minutes after 5.30 when he passed Spitalfields Church. That sounds as if he had a look at the church clock which would make his timing more reliable than that of Long. She only stated that she heard a clock chime. I don't know the brewery's clock she heard but maybe the chimes at quarter and at half are the same (i.e. only one chime and not one at quarter and two at half and three at a quarter to).

[lynn cates]

3 points

Hello JTR.

"That's assuming JTR was Stride's killer."

Yes. Although I make no such assumption, I think I did point out that there were those who assumed that. I was trying to draw a parallel in the disparate reasoning of the Stride-ists here.

"For Chapman, he had the fence to guard him[.]"

Do you think those rickety palings did an effective job of that?

" . . . and I think he made sure no saw him go in either."

Quite. But how could he be sure that someone, possibly even a PC, would not pop through that same passage way? What about a voyeur gazing through a window and having a look at the scene?

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

I think in the case of Cadosche vs Long, all we can say for certain in that someone was probably in the backyard at Hanbury when he went out for his .....well, you know.

That he heard a soft "no" and later a thud seems to me to be most likely an assault of some kind.

Just how many assaults do we believe occurred in that backyard that night? For me, its probably one.

Best regards all.