Fanny Mortimer

[Tom_Wescott]

Your name came up recently on this subject via Debra Arif. She recommended your opinion.

Thank you for saying that, PJ. As Debra is one of the most respected modern Ripper researchers, I take that as a great compliment.

Your assessment of Kozebrododski and the grapes seemed to be broadly in consensus with the jtrforums discussion.

I'll have to check that out. I take it you're then familiar with my theory on the grapes?

My confusion is over James Brown testimony and the exact location of the Chandlers Shop he bought his meal from.

If memory serves (and occassionally it does), the chandler shop would have been caddy-corner to the board school. So, if you were standing in the doorway of the Nelson and looked straight, you'd be stairing at the corner of Berner and Fairclough where stood the Board School. If you looked to your left, you'd be looking towards the IWEC, and if you looked to your right you'd be staring at the corner chandler's shop where Brown purchased his dinner.

Count down three doors (furthest right) and we can see where Mrs Mortimer Stood.

I believe that would be two doors down. Mortimer lived at 36 Berner Street and the club was at number 40.

Now here’s where things get foggy. Presumably Pipeman is stood either in the doorway under the Nestles Milk sign or simply comes out the double doors or around the corner of Fairclough Street, which we see to the left of picture.

The beerhouse had already closed by this time, so he either was standing in the shadows of the doorway or had emerged from, as you said, around the corner. Of course, this is if we accept what the Star report tells us. The Swanson summary does not tell us where Pipeman stood.

Brown and Mortimer would not have seen each other. It is often assumed that Mortimer was standing on the pavement, but this is not what she said. She said she was standing in her doorway. She would have had a full view looking towards Commercial Road, but only a partial view looking towards Fairclough Street. Someone in silent shoes could have turned the corner at the Nelson and walked to Dutfield's Yard without her ever having seen them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Tom

And a Happy New Year to you. Your name came up recently on this subject via Debra Arif. She recommended your opinion but I did not like to ask. But now you are here, I could do with your help.

Your assessment of Kozebrododski and the grapes seemed to be broadly in consensus with the jtrforums discussion.

My confusion is over James Brown testimony and the exact location of the Chandlers Shop he bought his meal from.

The photo I posted is the junction of Berner Street and Fairclough Street (which you clearly know) The person who took it was facing Northwest. To the Right is a wheel that marks Dutfeild Yard. Count down three doors (furthest right) and we can see where Mrs Mortimer Stood. Packers Shop window is centre picture at number 44. (Next to pub). Schwartz and BS walk past Fanny’s door. Stride (visible to us just inside gate below wheel, BS stops about where curbs disappear on pavement))

Now here’s where things get foggy. Presumably Pipeman is stood either in the doorway under the Nestles Milk sign or simply comes out the double doors or around the corner of Fairclough Street, which we see to the left of picture.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2875

For anyone confused I’ll repost the link to map kindly supplied by Rob Clack that gives the aerial view and numbers. Hear we see Dutfeild yard numbers 46, 44, 42, 40, 38 and 36 as seen in the photograph. These numbers run north down Berner Street towards Commercial Street.

Numbers 17, 19,21,23, 25, and 27 Fairclough Street run West to East, presumably across the junction to 35 Fairclough Street and Browns house? (this is guess work on my part)

So my question is: When you say directly across the street from Nelsons Beer Shop (presumably what we are looking at in the photo ie the corner pub) Well which direction exactly? South , South west or opposite West (Board School where there is an ‘L’ shaped building on the corner shown on map?)

Basically any help on Brown’s journey much appreciated. However I think it interesting that from what I can fathom Brown does Not have a great view of Berner Street at all, I think it most unlikely he and Mortimer can see each other once we have the angles correct.

Clearly any observation made from either street would give a 90 degree angle and thus views would be only a matter of seconds as someone crossed the junction.

Many thanks again for your help

Yours Jeff

One additional point....Issac Kozebrodski only conflicts with Blackwell's earliest estimate by under 4 minutes...hardly grounds for suggesting the medical evidence defies his claim she was found at 12:40 instead of 1am.

3 witnesses suggested a time close to 12:40 or 12:45 for the actual discovery of the body.... and I person who wasnt asked to attend the Inquest says he passed the gates at 12:45 while witnessing an altercation...one which Brown, who did attend the Inquest,... didnt see at the exact same time...and one club steward says he pulled in at 1am.

Clearly.....15 to 20 minutes in error with this murder is an eyebrow raiser.

Best regards

Hi all,

Some good points Tom, however Fanny isnt the only witness that saw nothing in front of that gates when Israel said he was passing by....Brown also saw and reported nothing seen in front of the gates at the same time Israel says he saw the altercation take place.

And Pirate...the only reason to exclude Spooner is based on Diemshitz testimony...and as I showed a few posts ago...he gives conflicting statements in many aspects of the time near and just after the body was found. Issac K's times match with Spooners suggestion he joined the men yelling "murder" and he entered the yard around 12:40-45am.

Spooner say he left the bar when it closed, midnight, and walked to the spot outside the Beehive, where he was hanging around with his lady friend for about 25 minutes.

If you check where he says he came from and at what time, midnight.....and estimate the time it would take to walk to the location outside the Beehive...at most 15 minutes.....and you add the 25 minutes loitering...you get 12:00 midnight plus 15minutes walk plus 25 loiter....it matches Issacs time of 12:40, when he says that he was called to the yard and then sent by Louis for help....by himself.

Check Louis's paper statement I posted and then check the others.....you would have to be blind to not see the inconsistencies that exist between what Louis says, and what Issac, Spooner and one other club witness said was the time they knew a body was lying in the passageway.

They are approx 15-20 minutes out of sync.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all, just a few thoughts. I haven't read the whole thread, but probably should when I get time.

Fanny Mortimer

The descriptions of the mysterious couple do seem to place them at the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street (i.e. 20 yards from club, main thoroughfaire). It's important to remember that Fanny never stated she saw this couple, only that the woman told her they were there before and after 1am. This tells us they were standing on the Fairclough Street side, so it's only natural that she wouldn't have seen them. It might be significant that the woman said she saw no one and heard nothing, as this might conflict with what Schwartz says. But keep in mind that this also means the woman did not see Leon Goldstein, who we know for a fact walked within inches of her just minutes before Diemschutz raised the alarm.

If Mrs. Mortimer came out around 12:46am and went back in about 12:56am, then it's entirely possible she missed Schwartz, who might have come along before she came out. The entire Schwartz episode would have taken no more than 2 minutes and Mortimer herself commented how strangely quiet and vacant the street was that night.

James Brown

The chandler's shop he went to was directly across the street from the Nelson Beer Shop (not a pub) which Pirate Jack posted of a photo of today.

Kozebrodski

His English was not good and he never stated otherwise. A lot of what's attributed to him may have actually come from Diemschutz.

The Grapes

There were none. This is very obvious from reading the materials.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

PS Spooner was clearly out:

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Edward_Spooner.html

basing his timing on the closing of public houses. He also doesnt mention Grapes..

It is interesting however that he is standing where Brown claims he found a Copper on the corner of Fairclough and Christian Street?

most odd

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Heres a snippet from the Daily News on October 1st....Louis Diemshitz is the speaker....he starts with this statement about what time he arrived

"This (Sunday) morning I got back from Westow market as usual about one o'clock".....no mention of any clock that he used to make this guess with.

Then he goes on.....

"....Then I noticed that there was something unusual about the ground, but I could not tell what it was except that it was not level. I mean that there was something there like a little heap. But I thought it was only mud or something of that kind, and did not take much notice of it. However, I touched it with my whip-handle, and then I was able to tell that it was not mud. I wanted to see what it was, so jumped out of the trap and struck a match. Then I saw that there was a woman lying there. At that time I took no further notice, and didn't know whether she was drunk or dead. All I did was to run indoors and ask where my missis was because she is of weak constitution, and I did not want to frighten her. I found that my wife was sitting downstairs, and I then told some of the members of the club that something had happened in the yard, but I did not say whether the woman was murdered or only drunk. One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me. We struck a match and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found. There was another member of the club named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and managed to find two officers somewhere in Commercial-road. One of them was 262 H. An officer blew his whistle, and several more policemen came up."

Louis does not say he left the yard, he in essence confirms that he went with Issac for help..... (Isaac said he was sent by Louis and left the yard alone)...and that police whistle he mentions, based on his suggested time of arrival, cannot be the one that Fanny heard....because this would have been at least several minutes after 1am, after Eagle had left and was heading back.

Here is Issac's statement in the same article....

"A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom. "


Now, at the Inquest Louis says this.....

"On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street."

He goes on to say....and this is key......

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased."

Now Spooner....

" I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Spooner's account suggests he saw the 2 men yelling murder, returning to the club at close to 12:40ish, if you do the math for his walk and the time he loiters there....a full 20 minutes before Louis even says he turned into the gate.

My best regards

I've just been over Isaac M. Kozebrodski, press statements in some detail on JtR forums.

Clearly his testimony goes against the medical findings. Perhaps his english was not as god as he claimed? as his timings and beleif in the grapes are clearly all incorrect.

Why try to knock square pegs into round holes for no apparent reason when Deimshutz testomony of arriving just after 1.00pm fits most of the evidence?

Pirate

Heres a snippet from the Daily News on October 1st....Louis Diemshitz is the speaker....he starts with this statement about what time he arrived

"This (Sunday) morning I got back from Westow market as usual about one o'clock".....no mention of any clock that he used to make this guess with.

Then he goes on.....

"....Then I noticed that there was something unusual about the ground, but I could not tell what it was except that it was not level. I mean that there was something there like a little heap. But I thought it was only mud or something of that kind, and did not take much notice of it. However, I touched it with my whip-handle, and then I was able to tell that it was not mud. I wanted to see what it was, so jumped out of the trap and struck a match. Then I saw that there was a woman lying there. At that time I took no further notice, and didn't know whether she was drunk or dead. All I did was to run indoors and ask where my missis was because she is of weak constitution, and I did not want to frighten her. I found that my wife was sitting downstairs, and I then told some of the members of the club that something had happened in the yard, but I did not say whether the woman was murdered or only drunk. One of the members who is known as Isaacs went out with me. We struck a match and saw blood running from the gate all the way down to the side door of the club. We had the police sent for at once, but I believe it was several minutes before a constable could be found. There was another member of the club named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and managed to find two officers somewhere in Commercial-road. One of them was 262 H. An officer blew his whistle, and several more policemen came up."

Louis does not say he left the yard, he in essence confirms that he went with Issac for help..... (Isaac said he was sent by Louis and left the yard alone)...and that police whistle he mentions, based on his suggested time of arrival, cannot be the one that Fanny heard....because this would have been at least several minutes after 1am, after Eagle had left and was heading back.

Here is Issac's statement in the same article....

"A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom. "


Now, at the Inquest Louis says this.....

"On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street."

He goes on to say....and this is key......

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased."

Now Spooner....

" I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police."

Spooner's account suggests he saw the 2 men yelling murder, returning to the club at close to 12:40ish, if you do the math for his walk and the time he loiters there....a full 20 minutes before Louis even says he turned into the gate.

My best regards

Brown not seeing Schwartz has always puzzled me but when you start reconstructing it it does make sense. As I said his view down Berner street is no more than 5 or 6 seconds. He's in the chandler shop buying dinner he comes out and is looking in the opposite direction on his return journey.

If Schwartz did run past him a) his back was turned b) Angle of veiw would have been 3 or four seconds if Schwartz was running.

Of course its impossible to be exact without knowing precise times but on what we know its hardly surprising Brown missed everything..he was facing the wrong way.

Yours Jeff

One thing I do know that has direct impact on whom we should believe is that Mr Brown is the only Inquest witness for 12:45am.

There is no evidence that suggests Israel's testimony was suppressed...as is openly suggested for Lawende.

Take Israel out of the equation and we have an entirely different scenario...that doesnt play out outside the gates. 3 witnesses told the police and press that same night that they were alerted to a dead woman in the passageway at approx 12:40am.

If they were correct, both Israel and Louis were not. One of the witnesses is Isaac K....who says that at 12:40 Louis called him from the house to the yard to see the body, and that he was sent out alone to get help by Louis. He returns with Eagle and the Police who he sees while heading back to the club...seeing no-one in the interval. Spooner says he met 2 men yelling "murder" at approx 12:40-12:45...based on his story to that point.

Best regards Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

PS The model also works much better if instead of hearing PC Smith, Mrs Mortimer hears BS returning north towards Commercial Road, then she comes out, smokes a pipe for ten minutes only seeing Goldstein. Goes back inside hears Diemshutz...and the rest is history!

[Jeff Leahy]

Interesting that Brown doesnt see what Israel says he saw at the same time, 12:45am, Spooner and Isaac K and another club witness say they were alerted to the body at around 12:40am, none of them confirm Louis's time of arrival, Eagle doesnt see Lave or vice versa when they say they were in the yard at the same time, and Eagle couldnt be sure the body was not there at 12:40am.

2. Fannys doorway is on the same side of the street as the gates, and she would have seen directly in front of the gates when at her door....but not into the yard itself.

Best regards Pirate

Brown not seeing Schwartz has always puzzled me but when you start reconstructing it it does make sense. As I said his view down Berner street is no more than 5 or 6 seconds. He's in the chandler shop buying dinner he comes out and is looking in the opposite direction on his return journey.

If Schwartz did run past him a) his back was turned b) Angle of veiw would have been 3 or four seconds if Schwartz was running.

Of course its impossible to be exact without knowing precise times but on what we know its hardly surprising Brown missed everything..he was facing the wrong way.

Yours Jeff

1. For some reason Mrs Mortimer was not called to give evidence at the inquest, which is odd because, although she didn’t see anything, her testimony is crucial to estimating the time Stride was murdered. Exactly when Mrs Mortimer went to her door is uncertain. She said she had gone outside after hearing the measured tread of what she assumed t be PC Smith passing on his beat, which would therefore have put her outside between 12.30 and 12.45 am, but if she had been outside at that time she would have seen the couple seen by PC Smith, would have seen Charles Letchford passing through the street at 12.30 am, Eagle Morris returning to the club at 12.35 am, a club member named Joseph Lave taking a stroll at or about 12.40 am and an assault on a woman outside the club at 12.45 am. Mrs Mortimer saw none of those people and none of those people said they saw her, all of which suggests that Mrs Mortimer did not go to her door immediately after hearing a policeman pass by (or if she did then PC Smith was much later than he said) The evidence therefore points to Mrs Mortimer having gone to the door about 12.45 am. And returning indoors shortly before hearing a pony and cart pass by, which we know was at 1 am.”

2. Fore instance where exactly was Mrs Mortimer Standing at 36 Berner Street?

Pirate

Hi pirate,

I just snipped these 2 points to address...

1. Fanny Mortimer says she was at her door off and on from around 12:45am until 1am. PC Smiths sighting was at 12:35am. The boots she heard and the sound of the cart near one only confirm that someone walked by her door with boots on, and a cart and horse were in the immediate area.

It is not clear that whether she heard the cart and horse arrive...or depart. The cart and horse are mentioned by no-one after the discovery of the body, which we have conflicting times for. 3 separate witnesses gave statements to the press that suggested that all 3 were alerted to the body near the gates a full 15 minutes before Diemshitz says he pulled in....something that no-one can verify...he was not seen arriving at 1 by anyone.

Eagle says he returned to the club at 12:40am, not 12:35am, and Lave says that he was in the yard from 12:30am until approx 12:40am. Not only do neither men corroborate the others tale by stating they saw each other, Eagle hedges his opinion as to whether the body was lying there when he arrived. He says he didnt notice anything....but he couldnt be sure. If Liz was lying there at 12:40 and he arrived at 12:40...no hedging would be needed...he would have had to step over or around the body to reach the side door....as he tells us he stayed close to the club wall because it was so dark.

I think Fanny was excluded because the only thing she actually saw was Leon Goldstein at around 12:56am...what she thought she heard wouldnt be solid enough to suggest on the stand.

Interesting that Brown doesnt see what Israel says he saw at the same time, 12:45am, Spooner and Isaac K and another club witness say they were alerted to the body at around 12:40am, none of them confirm Louis's time of arrival, Eagle doesnt see Lave or vice versa when they say they were in the yard at the same time, and Eagle couldnt be sure the body was not there at 12:40am.

The official storyline is akin to a Fish Market at high noon in the summer.

2. Fannys doorway is on the same side of the street as the gates, and she would have seen directly in front of the gates when at her door....but not into the yard itself.

Best regards Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Yeah I just found this in the A to Z which confirms what you say:

The Evening News learned that a courting couple was in the road crossing Berner Street at the time, and it has been suggested that Brown might have mistaken them for Stride and a man. Brown was self confessedly not very observant.

What I'm trying to do is recreate Browns route to the Chandler shop and where he meant. If we look at the map then number 46 is the pub from where pipeman appears, however I wonder if this was also the Chandler shop Brown referes to? if you look at the photo it appears to have three doors. A door on the corner presumably for the pub but also an entrance in Fairclough Street. Is it two premises?

If thats the entrance Brown goes in he only has a view down berner Street looking North to Commercial road for about 5 - 6 seconds as he crosses the road. And he has his back to Berner Street looking East down Fairclough Street on his return journey.

So its hardly surprising that he doesnt see Schwartz or BS man. Although you'd think he'd see Pipeman unless 46 Berner Street is parted inside.

Pirate

[lynn cates]

slippage

Hello Pirate. I think you are right that there is a bit of slippage in his testimony. I suppose one such is that he didn't see her flower. Of course, there could be a logical explanation for that.

There was a purported sighting of 2 sweethearts nearby. Could there be a conflation?

Also, did he not claim that he was "nearly" certain? That does allow some wriggle room.

The best.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

36 Berner Street was within spitting distance of Dutfields Yard.

[ATTACH]6030[/ATTACH]

Rob

Hi everyone

Currently doing some research into Berner Street and I am having difficulty with James Brown statement and siting of Liz Stride. He claims to have lived at 35 Fairclough Street but I cant find that on this map and wondered if anyone has a wider veiw?

`But everything about his statement is puzzling, he claims to have gone to a chandlers shop on the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street but the only premises I can find is the pub at 46 and Packers Shop window. I was wondering if the 'L' shape on this map, by broad school,
was a premises? He then claims to have taken quarter of an hour to go home, eat his food before hearing the alarm for murder? Seems a long time get home?

Also there were reports that night of another couple in the area and I wondered if anyone could shed any light on those source articles?

Many thanks Jeff

PS going by the numbers we can see in Fairclough Street I would guess that his house was on the other side of Fairclough Street and would question whether he ever had a view of Dutfields Yard at all?